A Roman God, a New Year, a Paycheque a Sports Jacket and that thing called football!

Guest Blog by Brogan Rogan Trevino and Hogan

Good Morning,

Can I start by wishing everyone who reads this blog a happy, peaceful and prosperous 2013.

In a few weeks’ time a couple of working class lads from Walsall and Wolverhampton will receive a reasonably sizeable cheque through the door. The money will be entirely expected and meticulously accounted for. A similar cheque will have arrived last year, and both will expect the process to repeat itself automatically this time next year.

The sum concerned will be sizeable—many thousands of pounds— and does not come from any insurance policy, institutional pension plan or other type of financially regulated investment. Further, in order to receive a similar amount next year, the two men will have to do precisely nothing! The money will simply come automatically!

Magic eh?

Well no—not really.

You see Neville and James ( for that is what they are called ) earned this money many years ago by completing a job of work, and they have been getting paid for the same job year in and year out ever since!

Except that you don’t know them as Nevile and James! No you may know them as Jim Lea ( who? you may say ) and Noddy Holder (aka Neville John Holder MBE ) the co author of that perennial Christmas classic “Merry Christmas Everybody”.

These two clever boys came up with their “pension” song by making a Christmas cracker out of tunes they had written and discarded in the past. Lea’s chords from years before provided the tune for the verses, while an earlier rejected composition of Holder’s became the chorus, and in this way it was the past work of both men that secured their future—even back in 1974!

As the song is played to death on Radio, in clubs, in pubs, in shops, on TV and everywhere else at Christmas, the New Year always brings a cheque of sizeable proportions for Messrs Lea and Holder.

However there were four members of Slade and not two, I hear you say!

Whilst that is correct, not every member of the band shares the royalties for ever more, with only the actual composers receiving the big bucks year on year — unless of course the gang of four agreed otherwise between themselves – as sometimes happens—but often doesn’t — in bands and other artistic collaborations!

And that, dear reader, neatly takes me to the current topic of the day on this here planet!!! The reconstruction, reorganisation and profit sharing in Scottish Fitba!!!

It strikes me that the SFA, SPL and SFL all want to come up with their own version of the pension song or product — Something that will make future performances interesting and lucrative for ever more without anyone having to put in too much effort in future.

Of course it is recognised that the clubs at the top of the financial tree have the greatest influence in composing this song, but there is an insistence, and so a desire, that even the minor band members should get a greater share of the royalties going forward.

All very honourable. All very interesting,— and all completely missing the point in my humble opinion.

Now, there is a clamour from the fans that the proposed structure of 12 – 12—18 is flawed and leads to daft consequences when worked through. We want 14- 14 – 14 say many fans or 16- 14 – 12 or some other composition altogether!!

Oh—and the fans want the chairmen to consult the fans before making a decision on anything, and they want Messrs Regan, Doncaster and Longmuir to stop telling fans that they need to be “educated” about what is best for the game!

All very noble! All very interesting, —and all completely missing the point once again in my humble opinion.

Jock Stein once famously proclaimed that football is nothing without fans— almost everyone knows that. Yet how many actually stop to consider those words and what he meant.

There is nothing without fans!!!!!

How many times have you heard commentators, journalists, ex players and even fans refer to the fans as “the paying customers” ?  This phrase has made its way into common parlance and is rarely- if ever- challenged or qualified.

So I will ask—is that what the football fan is prepared to be called—“The paying customer”?— is that it?

Are you, dear reader, a paying customer?—and nothing more?

Or is a football fan a “member of a club”—a “ supporter of a club” or even “part” of a club?

If you are just a paying customer does that mean that anyone who turns up at a ground and pays over some money on a solitary Saturday afternoon is to be seen in exactly the same way as the guy or gal who has been a season ticket holder for years and years?

Does the person who sits behind their keyboard and blogs and comments for Britain on matters football—but who never goes to a game or who does not spend a penny following or promoting their proclaimed club – have the same strength of voice as that season ticket holder—or even the guy who stumps up the cash to view a game once a year?

Not a chance in my view!!!

Equally though, if you have a Football Club Board who do nothing whatsoever to attract people into the club apart from throw out a team on a Saturday Afternoon with mixed degrees of success – are they worthy of support from the “paying customer” or anyone else for that matter?

In my view the answer is no— a very loud —NO!!!

If we are going to reconstruct Scottish Football then I am sorry you have to start by looking at exactly what it is you are trying to reconstruct—reconstruct being the appropriate and important word.

The job is to reconstruct—and regain— viable and important interest in Scottish Football and the teams—or clubs—who play in Scotland.

League reconstruction is only part of that process, and the redistribution of television money is only part of the league reconstruction part of the process!

The month of January is named after the Roman God Janus—who had two heads— one for looking forward and one for looking back. Janus was the God of transition—The God of change— and it was always clear that you could only have change going forward by casting an eye back to the past—to see what you wanted to keep from that past, to see what you wanted to jettison, and to see what could be learned from past times.

In the past , football crowds were far larger, revenues proportionally bigger and closer together when comparing clubs, and consequently it might be said that the football product was much better on the park—with various teams outwith the two big Glasgow teams—please do remember the Jags come from Glasgow too and that in the past Clyde and Third Lanark were also natives— competing for and winning trophies.

Nowadays, football clubs have lower attendances—unless of course one of the smaller teams ( I refuse to use the derogatory and well hackneyed phrase that is banded about re smaller Scottish Clubs ) gets to a Hampden final when low and behold anything between 20,000 and 30,000 lost football fans appear as if out of nowhere!!

And hey—if you happen to be a fan of the Ibrox Club or the Parkhead club—don’t go getting too comfy in your seat— where the hell were some of you before Seville or Manchester?

The point is that football is like politics — it all means nothing without participation— real participation. That means fans buying into, spending money on and in, and promoting their club at every opportunity. It means the clubs and their boards using every trick in the book to generate income away from the football pitch. A “Club” in law is no more than a collection of people coming together for a common purpose and a football club is perfectly capable of having genuine “club activity” which does not primarily involve football.

Where are the regional and local initiatives to promote the social aspects of football clubs? Do the facilities for women need upgrading to help persuade more mothers and girlfriends to come to the ground whether that be for games or other events or functions?

In a time of never ending football memorabilia, how many people went to their club shop this Christmas and bought merchandise for family and friends – even if the same family and friends support another club? How many people invite visitors or non football supporting friends to a game on a Saturday—even if it is only every now and then?

In short what do you do to support your club—and what can that club do to get more and more people involved in the club itself or its functions? And what functions could that club become involved in using existing facilities and resources?

Is there a kids club? A  weekday crèche? Are there facilities that are not used six days a week which could be used for community groups who have nothing to do with football—or even sport? Should the club hold daft things like race nights, bingo nights— functions that may well attract people who would no more likely  go to a football ground on a Saturday than suddenly develop Noddy Holder style sideburns?

How many people take an old shirt or T shirt or towel bearing the club colours on holiday to give to a waiter or a stranger or someone who has no connection with the club—with a view to creating a fan or someone with a bit of interest who might just one day become a season ticket holder or even an occasional “paying customer” at the door?

Further, are there folk out there who could actually go along and volunteer services for their club for nothing and so save the club from spending hard earned cash out of necessity? Could you be a gateman? Could you perform a task for your club on a voluntary basis?

You may think that a daft or utopian ideology but sports clubs traditionally always had a social purpose as well as a sporting one. Clubs were a focus for a locality, or a workforce, or a congregation or just about any group of people who want to come together for sporting or social purposes. Further those who volunteered their services for the common good often got great local recognition for their dedication and spirit.

Ask any Dons fan about Teddy Scott—who although a paid employee was Aberdeen FC through and through—pay or no pay!

The clamour for change in football should not be blinded by the words of the three official bodies and the more vocal chairmen of the clubs that want to play in the league – or not as the case may be. Change should come from the fans of the game up—but to be honest until the fans—or should I say the mysteriously disappearing armchair fans—actually come out and support their clubs a lot more often, then we are not going to see valuable and worthwhile change no matter what the league set up or composition.

On Saturday, I listened to Off The Ball on Radio Scotland where the contributors waxed lyrical about journalists of yesteryear who made the game and broadcasting interesting. Jimmy Sanderson, Bob Crampsey et al – they all got a mention.

The discussion sparked a memory for me when they came to discuss the legend that is Arthur Montford—famously referred to by Jock Stein as “ The Sportsjacket” with reference to his never ending collection of blazers.

Arthur was a journalist—both print and broadcast— with the BBC and then STV since 1957 in terms of television—and with the Evening Times and other papers in terms of the written press.

A lifelong follower of Morton and a keen Golfer and golf commentator, Arthur has been retired this many a year although he can still be seen walking up and down Byres Road occasionally. At one time he became Chairman of Morton and he used to write in the club programme on a regular basis—possibly still does! He is by all accounts a nice man—a good man— sufficiently good and of sufficient standing to have been elected as the Rector of Glasgow University in 1975—beating George Brown and Janey Buchan ( if you don’t know who they were then look them up! )— in the process.

He was the first sports journalist to hold that post.

In his Rectorial address Arthur went to great lengths to highlight what can be achieved if volunteers— individuals— club members if you like— put their shoulders to the wheel and strive for change, for a common purpose, and for society in general. He stressed that such communal effort brought about change—brought about improvement— brought about advancement in numerous situations. This was only three years after Jimmy Reid had used the same platform to denounce the “Rat Race” declaring “ I am not a rat!”.

For football to change in this country we need action—action by the fans—action by the clubs—action by the journalists and commentators to highlight initiatives and opportunities for our football clubs to play a greater part in our communities— from kids to pensioners, from toddlers to mums and dads, local residents to occasional visitors.

That is the way to make your voice heard and to make that voice count. That is the way to bring about the change that you want for the future.

There were four members of Slade—but only two wrote the words and music to Merry Christmas Everybody and it is they who earned the right to the pension royalties for ever more. The other two bit part players did not!

Janus was meant to oversee transition to the future by casting an eye on the past and learning from what went before—as should we when considering Scottish Football—and in that spirit you will find a link to the whole of Arthur Montford’s address below— there are things worth learning there.

Here’s to the future—-NOW—– its only just begun!

Click to access UGSD00029.pdf

About Jim McGinley
Management Consultant/Legal Executive and lover of Music, Sport,People, laughing,good food, good wine, a decent pint, Good Cinema, a decent book or two, brilliant cities with brilliant pubs, Celtic Football Club, total nonsense and Cowboy boots!

524 Responses to A Roman God, a New Year, a Paycheque a Sports Jacket and that thing called football!

  1. chancer67 says:

    Jimlarkin says @14;05

    What do you expect from the pieman Jim, looks like he’s been on RM for inspiration.
    I remember when he came out with his classic that Rangers winning the ECWC in 1972 was a bigger achievement than the Lisbon Lions in 1967.

  2. bogsdollox says:

    Danish Pastry says:
    Friday, January 18, 2013 at 14:30

    That subject possibly needs a thread of its own. I feel I’ve read the arguments for and against ad nauseum. I know my own opinion. It’s not a complicated issue in my mind, and as bogs says, there’s been no new angle of late. Why is it so difficult to just change the subject for a bit?
    ==========================================================================

    The answer is: It doesn’t fit the agenda of many of the Celtic minded posters. It’s a my clubs older than yours mentality and a revelling in the demise of their bitter rivals. Meanwhile Babylon burns.

  3. briggsbhoy says:

    I’m in agreement I’ve heard the arguments on oldco newco (posted many myself) until I’m blue in the face and never want to be blue in the face, hate the colour.

  4. bogsdollox says:
    Friday, January 18, 2013 at 14:37
    0 0 Rate This
    Danish Pastry says:
    Friday, January 18, 2013 at 14:30

    That subject possibly needs a thread of its own. I feel I’ve read the arguments for and against ad nauseum. I know my own opinion. It’s not a complicated issue in my mind, and as bogs says, there’s been no new angle of late. Why is it so difficult to just change the subject for a bit?
    ==========================================================================

    The answer is: It doesn’t fit the agenda of many of the Celtic minded posters. It’s a my clubs older than yours mentality and a revelling in the demise of their bitter rivals. Meanwhile Babylon burns.
    ———-

    I’m not too sure I would generalize like that bogs. I sense a strong desire across this forum for fairness throughout the leagues, whether it’s wee clubs or big clubs involved in any wrongdoing.

  5. bawsman says:
    Friday, January 18, 2013 at 14:49
    The moderators should take a long, hard look at themselves if they think they dealt with the situation in a reasonable manner.
    <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
    LNS to rule soon on club status & future scale of punishments,
    Perhaps this particular subject matter is too emotionally delicate & has created a conflict of interest situation with the individual mod or mods..?

  6. angus1983 says:

    jimlarkin says:
    Friday, January 18, 2013 at 14:05

    . . . and to think i stopped buying the daily retard. . . .and it wasn’t as bad as this !!!!!!!!!!!!
    ——

    To be fair, Jim, that article has Derek Johnstone’s byline on it – so would you expect any better?

    As for HP getting a post deleted … if it concerned a subject that TSFM had already said would be dealt with in such a way then fair enough. It’s TSFM’s ba’, and his rules. And those rules should be applied without fear or favour.

    The oldco/newco thing … yes, it’s a tired subject but, as recognised early on here, the plan has always been to repeat the mantra until it’s accepted that TRFC are RFC. If everyone just shuts up about it, then that will be as good as accepting it. The subject will die a slow death and fade, and TRFC will be RFC. That in itself doesn’t bother me much – but the sleekit way in which they’ve gone about it does.

    Bogs at 14:37 … Thumbs up from me. 🙂

  7. manandboy says:

    Hirsute Pursuit
    _________________________________________________________________________________
    TSFM,

    I think a straight red was too severe for a player with his record and standing in the game.

    Please consider this an appeal against that decision – and please don’t tell me there’s no appeal.

  8. I’ve written before on here: it’s up to those who set up the blog, and those who moderate same, what they allow to stay and what they delete. The other day I had what I considered an innocent, but flippant/jokey post removed and was taken aback. But it ain’t my site!

    Having written that, nothing was offensive in HirsutePursuit’s post, imo, and the mods should be wary of driving decent posters away.

    Re the Evening Times article complaining about fans losing out on a promotion after buying season tickets: supporters of the other 9 clubs in Division 3 probably bought tickets hoping for a promotion as well: then the authorities dumped a ‘debt free’ new club on them, and this season was in vain.

  9. manandboy says:
    Friday, January 18, 2013 at 15:19
    4 0 Rate This
    Hirsute Pursuit
    _________________________________________________________________________________
    TSFM,

    I think a straight red was too severe for a player with his record and standing in the game.

    Please consider this an appeal against that decision – and please don’t tell me there’s no appeal.
    ———

    Yes, one thing we’ve learned is that you can bend the rules to suit the club .. uh … poster … no, club 😀

  10. ordinaryfan says:

    bogsdollox says:
    Friday, January 18, 2013 at 14:37The answer is: It doesn’t fit the agenda of many of the Celtic minded posters. It’s a my clubs older than yours mentality and a revelling in the demise of their bitter rivals. Meanwhile Babylon burns

    ………………..

    That just doesn’t add up for several reasons. Firstly, the reaction to RFC and its reincarnation has invoked, has came from all quarters, not just Celtic supporters, to suggest otherwise is unfair to supporters across Scottish Football.
    Secondly, as a Celtic fan, the length of RFC’s existence means little to me, except that the length of its existence shows just how long we have been hindered and put up with disgraceful corruption in our game.
    Thirdly, and what posters such as yourself seem reluctant to accept, is that Celtic FC and its fans have been at the forefront of this fight against corruption and collusion long before any other Club had the courage or even the inclination to speak out, never mind the courage to confront the issue.
    What some people fail to grasp, is that this hasn’t just came “out of the blue”*, this has been going on for decades. The fall of RFC has simply exposed the depth of bias within the governing bodies and the MSM, something Celtic fans have been challenging for decades, much to the amusement of other supporters who held the belief that the “Old Firm” were one and the same and that Celtic fans epitomised “paranoia”.

  11. nawlite says:

    My last post before I too leave. I know I won’t be missed as much as HP.

    I’ve said before I’m not a CFC fan, so the generalisation that the desire to maintain the stance of ‘It’s a new club’ is a CFC fan agenda is, frankly, nonsense. It’s about fairness, for me anyway.

    The MSM and authorities (and RFC*, I guess) are hoping that reiteration of the facts becomes so boring for everyone that we stop correcting their statements.

    It’s interesting that that was the reason given by TSFM for stopping/deleting such posts – maybe their plan is working.

    I do think it wrong that we are not allowed to mention that topic when it would appear that a sizeable proportion of posters do still see it as very important. To then delete such an excellent post trying to explain why it is important does a reall disservice to HP’s views.

    I wrote before that I love this blog, so I’ll still look in regularly. Cheers.

  12. ohhappydayz says:

    Maybe some transparency from TSFM on HP post as I thought it was excellent and very relevant.

  13. achillesacronym says:

    HP’s post wasn’t actually conjectural – it only summed up the two midsets for all to. It would have been an ideal line under the whole subject. My own post in response suggests the same.

    To delete HP’s post was a mistake. Hopefully this can be recognised and rectified.

  14. ordinaryfan says:

    bogsdollox says:
    Friday, January 18, 2013 at 14:37The answer is: It doesn’t fit the agenda of many of the Celtic minded posters. It’s a my clubs older than yours mentality and a revelling in the demise of their bitter rivals. “Meanwhile Babylon burns”

    ……………

    “Babylon” didn’t just one day burst into flames, Celtic fans have been fighting this fire for decades whilst everyone else jeered from the sidelines.

  15. ordinaryfan says:

    nawlite says:
    Friday, January 18, 2013 at 16:10
    4 0 Rate This
    The MSM and authorities (and RFC*, I guess) are hoping that reiteration of the facts becomes so boring for everyone that we stop correcting their statements.

    ………………

    This is the crux of it. I see nothing wrong with correcting a lie. If the MSM or governing bodies persist in lying and stating disinformation, there is almost a duty to correct them every time they do so.

  16. re derek johnstone in the times.

    “over 38,000 fans have bought season tickets on the understanding that, if rangers win the irn-bru third division, they will be promoted”.

    Fans of every football team in scotland bought tickets for the last ten years (at least), on the understanding that it was a level playing field.

  17. willmacufree says:

    I’ve just checked back in. I cannot believe what I’m reading that Hirsute Pursuit’s top quality post has been deleted. I’d been thinking for a week or two that the forum needed some expert legal guidance such as his.

    He provides it and bang, it’s gone. You need to tell us why.

  18. smugas says:

    As a suggestion, lets do what TSFM has asked and drop the club subject for now until such time as new info does come up, ie LNS, or BRIEFLY bring it in to support a RELEVANT point, not make the point in itself, again and again.

    I would very much hope that HP and others would rejoin the debate on this basis. It is not censorship. It is certainly not giving in.

    In the meantime as a diddy follower please drop the we’re all equal but some are even more equal than others crap.

    Ta.

  19. rustyploughbhoy says:

    Sean Fallon

    I will raise a glass to you tonight sir.

    May your soul rest in peace
    Amen.

  20. bailemeanach says:

    finbaraidenmuldoon says

    Surely not the finbar muldoon of BBC fans forum fame??

  21. thereek says:

    bogsdollox says:
    Friday, January 18, 2013 at 14:37
    5 21 i
    Rate This
    Danish Pastry says: (Edit)
    Friday, January 18, 2013 at 14:30

    ==========================================================================

    The answer is: It doesn’t fit the agenda of many of the Celtic minded posters. It’s a my clubs older than yours mentality and a revelling in the demise of their bitter rivals. Meanwhile Babylon burns.
    ~~~~~~
    Catching up on the blog today it does strike me that we’re floundering a little. Our joint sense of purpose is diminishing and we’re at odds around the scale of moderation.

    I’ll do my Wenger impression here and say I didn’t see HP’s post so I don’t know precisely what it said but there seems to be some strength of opinion from reasonable posters that there has been an over-reaction.

    At the same time I’m not sure how bogs’ post and Angus’ endorcement @ 15.13 is likely to promote any sense of harmony (I assume it wasn’t !) with Celtic fans. That may be a criticism of either or both sides and I’m trying to remain neutral (while a ‘Tic follower).

    While the blog is all about debate and differening views there also has to be an air of acceptance of others’ views and along with that a challenge for us all personally to continually reassess our standpoints based on the value of competing arguments. I suppose what I’m trying to say here is I feel that the way things are going just now is tending to send people away and not bring us together. People who have something of value to offer.

    Can we all take a few moments to consider what we can individually do to restore the collective nature of the blog and come back and make it stronger.

  22. Palacio67 says:

    I think we have came to the ‘sliding doors’ moment of this blog, this is a pivotal time TSFM. The blog has lost many good bloggers in the last month, and again today. I like many others loved the RTC blog and learned a lot from it, this site was a breath of fresh air also at the start. Although I am not a frequent poster I do read every post everyday, and I also flounced off a good few weeks back after having posts deleted, which imo was ott. There were other posters who put great effort and time into lengthy posts only to see them deleted also.
    You may delete this post if you like, but a lot of the other bloggers are unhappy .
    Time to man up TSFM, the site is losing customers, its sink or swim time.

  23. Bailemeanach.

    I’m not sure if I’m allowed to say MON THE BARREL HOOPS.

    But I’ll say it anyway.

    Just in case.

    MON THE BARREL HOOPS

  24. schottie59 says:

    Its surely up to us what posts we read and what we skip by ….I would suggest a re-think. HP is a valued poster and I would think no one “skips” his/hers posts..

  25. neepheid says:

    TSFM gave everyone fair warning. He said clearly that any posts on that subject would be considered OT and deleted. I rather stupidly strayed onto that subject in a subsequent post, and I expect it has been deleted, although I haven’t checked. If it has been deleted, I can’t complain, I was clearly warned.

    So I really don’t understand why people are leaving the room. When I’m in someone else’s house, I try to follow their rules whether I agree with them or not. That’s just good manners. To those who decide to leave, good luck finding a better forum.

  26. bailemeanach says:

    finbaraidenmuldoon says:
    .

    I’m not sure if I’m allowed to say MON THE BARREL HOOPS.

    But I’ll say it anyway.

    Just in case.

    MON THE BARREL HOOPS
    ____________________________________

    Brings back memories, big red and Mr Paul on the Gullane sands

    How do you like them apples?!

  27. StevieBC says:

    Have TSFM mods retreated with tin hats on, into Ogilvie’s bunker ?! [only joking]

    I had a couple of posts deleted recently for fairly tame reasons, and whilst mildly surprised I accepted the reasons communicated by TSFM.

    For me, first and foremost the TSFM mods are volunteering their time for free.

    And typically, as most of us probably know from our own experiences, when you do something ‘voluntarily’ you seldom get any thanks, and sometimes you even start to regret helping out in the first place !

    So I am grateful to have this site to interact and learn from others.

    Of course TSFM is not perfect, but it is still an awful lot better than most, IMHO.

  28. bogsdollox says:

    neepheid says:
    Friday, January 18, 2013 at 17:17

    TSFM gave everyone fair warning. He said clearly that any posts on that subject would be considered OT and deleted. I rather stupidly strayed onto that subject in a subsequent post, and I expect it has been deleted, although I haven’t checked. If it has been deleted, I can’t complain, I was clearly warned.

    So I really don’t understand why people are leaving the room. When I’m in someone else’s house, I try to follow their rules whether I agree with them or not. That’s just good manners. To those who decide to leave, good luck finding a better forum.
    ======================================================================

    In my opinion the “ownership” of this blog lies with the people who contribute and read it not with TSFM and the mods.

    Ok -HP was warned off writing about oldco/newco because the subject was becoming repetitive and stale but him posting a very well considered summary of the positions was not a reason to delete it. That option should only be exercised in very few circumstances.

    We need to move to a new format where there can be a thread that deals only with oldco/newco issues where people can debate away if that is their interest and other threads that deal with other issues we are interested in.

    I’m not disinterested in the oldco/newco debate(and for the record I subscribe to the newco theory) but I’m fed up reading the same points over and over on threads that are supposed to be about another issue.

  29. StevieBC says:
    Friday, January 18, 2013 at 17:26
    1 0 Rate This

    And typically, as most of us probably know from our own experiences, when you do something ‘voluntarily’ you seldom get any thanks, and sometimes you even start to regret helping out in the first place !
    ———-

    Thankless task being a mod. Disappointed that people choose to leave because a post is deleted. Seems a bit Charles Green-ish to up sticks just because the authorities don’t accede to our every whim.

    Whither respect?

  30. TSFM says:

    Not in the bunker yet Steve, just in transit 🙂

    We did explain that posts about this stuff were OT.
    We did explain that any such posts would be removed.
    We have also explained that criticism of the moderation policy should not be include in the current blog.
    We have also explained that people who deliberately and repeatedly flout the policy of the site will have posting privileges removed.

    In today’s circumstances therefore, I infer that either people cannot or will not abide by those very reasonable rules.

    If, after explicit requests, posters decide to disrespect those rules, then I don’t see how they can complain when we take precisely the course of action we said we would.

    If there are people who think that the moderation policy is an abuse of their human rights or whatever, then other blogs are available – and so too are other domain names.

    There is no need for anyone to restate again, for the umpteenth time, what their opinion is on the provenance of Charles Green’s Rangers. If I were a Rangers fan, I would perhaps take some succour from this – perhaps conclude that people were protesting too much.

    This site is without doubt turning into an anti-Rangers message board. There are tons of those out there. We don’t want this to be one of them.

    I am no lover of Rangers, but I do value intellect, and it is being choked to death on this topic.

    We are happy to entertain and in fact encourage discussion on the paradox of New Club / Old Club, but we need to take it as read that some people insist its new, some people insist its not, and others like myself couldn’t care less.

    We agree to disagree and move on – or we just move on.

    We have undoubtedly lost posters on here of late. The site has never been as popular as RTC, but without the promise of a sacrificial Rangers, we never doubted that it would be.

    If a smaller leaner, TSFM emerges from this then that’s not a bad thing.

  31. troyblain says:
    Friday, January 18, 2013 at 18:26
    1 0 Rate This

    The press and media are using the “oh not again, this is so boring” message to stop any discussion on RFC being a new club. Rather than delete all the posts why not have an article that can be commented on – that way anybody fed up with it does not need to read it.
    ———-

    Exactly troyblain. It is time for a few active threads here, as has already been mentioned. Invite HP, or ?, to prepare a short blog on the offending subject and let comments flow on that blog thread ‘on topic’. It could easily run parallel to this current BRTH blog. That would avoid unneccessary conflicts, walk outs, etc, while maintaining proper respect for the mods, who might just choose to walk out as well.

  32. tombrann says:

    I’d just like to dispel this notion being put about by the likes of DJ that any fan buying a season ticket is paying to see their team promoted at the end of a season if they win the league. Any fan buying a season ticket is actually paying up front for the right to attend a set number of games at a particular ground. There is no mention of competition rules or potential prizes, it’s a prepaid ticket for admission and as far as I can make out no-one is now going to be allowed to attend a fewer number of games than before. League reconstruction whether or not it comes in, will have no effect on the number of games to be played this season. All this nonsense about punters being misled or having recourse to a refund is absurd.

  33. Nuclear Sheep says:

    I am very disappointed to see Ryan Fraser head for the far end of the island. Bournemouth are a very small English club, but now bigger than Aberdeen. Very sad times.

    Ryan is a player that people would be willing to pay to see. He is eighteen years of age and at the very start of his footballing career. He has made less than 25 appearances for Aberdeen.

    I can only assume that his wage must have increased significantly. I don’t understand how Bournemouth can pay more and offer the chance of an improved future to him, but they can.

    How this huge imbalance in the financial power has come about I struggle to understand, but until it rebalances, I think Scottish football will be forced to tread water. Maybe it never will, but I think it will. The finances of English and Spanish football don’t make sense to me. Financial doping appears to be accepted as common practice.

    On the upside, the reported £400k that he has added to the Don’s coffers will no doubt help keep the wolf from the door.

    Good luck Ryan, I wish you well.

  34. TSFM says:
    Friday, January 18, 2013 at 18:29
    14 12 Rate This

    We have also explained that people who deliberately and repeatedly flout the policy of the site will have posting privileges removed.

    In today’s circumstances therefore, I infer that either people cannot or will not abide by those very reasonable rules.

    If, after explicit requests, posters decide to disrespect those rules, then I don’t see how they can complain when we take precisely the course of action we said we would.

    ————————————–

    TSFM,

    So, you are saying that you have clearly stated rules, and are applying them, without fear or favour ? And you expect this to be OK in Scotland ?

    Good grief, what the hell are you thinking ?

  35. ianagain says:

    Nuclear

    How this huge imbalance in the financial power has come about I struggle to understand, but until it rebalances, I think Scottish football will be forced to tread water. Maybe it never will, but I think it will. The finances of English and Spanish football don’t make sense to me. Financial doping appears to be accepted as common practice.

    =======================================

    Check the penalties being handed out to Spanish (and other) teams on the UEFA site and await the follow through on English ones due shortly. I cannot believe everyone on here has not seen the rush to “Financial fairplay” compiance going on in England.
    Every Spanish team backed by a local government is at risk.

  36. ianagain says:

    I knew avoidance of the effective remedy of just calling them the old RTC name of “Pretendygers” would lead to tears.Says it all if you use it. Says it all if you dont. Problem solved.

  37. TSFM says:

    5starsorbehindbars says:

    Friday, January 18, 2013 at 19:34(Edit)

    TSFM,

    So, you are saying that you have clearly stated rules, and are applying them, without fear or favour ? And you expect this to be OK in Scotland ?

    Good grief, what the hell are you thinking ?
    ___________________________________________________________

    🙂

  38. theglen2012 says:

    Senior says:
    Friday, January 18, 2013 at 10:30

    Senior, I take your point and you are quite right – my apologies.

    Have a good weekend.

    —————————————————–

    Regarding today’s events, I missed HP’s post, so I can’t add anything to the discussion.

  39. Flocculent Apoidea says:

    bogsdollox says:
    Friday, January 18, 2013 at 14:37

    The answer is: It doesn’t fit the agenda of many of the Celtic minded posters. It’s a my clubs older than yours mentality and a revelling in the demise of their bitter rivals. Meanwhile Babylon burns.
    _____________________________________________

    As someone who is entirely Clyde minded, it doesn’t suit my view of fair play. The SFA have handled this very badly, to the detriment of our game and the intense frustration and disbelief of many fans.

    I thought HP’s post would have made a good blog statement until things moved on via LNS but also, as I read it, expected it to be deleted. Wish I’d copied it. Can we pm on here?

  40. bailemeanach says:

    Missed the HP post. There’s a lot of talk about it, so it must have hit a nerve. That’s the kind of post worth reading. Shame I didn’t get the opportunity, but I can understand that these forums need policing and need to be consistent with policy. That’s the crux of what we’ve been discussing for months – consistent and unbiased application of rules.

    Still, would like to have had a read!

  41. ianagain says:

    Do remember RTC had to take stuff down by the ream.

  42. jonnyod says:

    oops looks like it ,sorry for any offence ,none was meant
    thanks for taking up the mantle after RTC left the building ,best of luck for the future

  43. By way of a humour injection, I was going to write something along the lines of: If a poster takes the huff, leaves, deletes his online indentity, then returns under a new alias – can he lay claim to his previous posts, or is he a completely new poster with no previous posting history? But then I thought I’d better not … oops!

    🙂

  44. StevieBC says:

    Mr.McConville has posted a thought-provoking piece on the LNS inquiry.

    He predicts a ‘guilty’ verdict – yet no title stripping.

    … his reasoning seems depressingly plausible… 🙄

    Up until now, my simple thinking was that a ‘guilty’ verdict, by default, would result in title stripping as the starting point.

    Why the Nimmo Smith Commission Will Not Strip Rangers FC of Titles

  45. areyouaccusingmeofmendacity says:

    Flocculent Apoidea says:

    Friday, January 18, 2013 at 20:06

    As someone else who is entirely Clyde minded, I agree! You find that a lot – if you don’t follow the party line from TRFC, then it’s because you’re a bitter Celtic fan. Apparently a desire to see fair play is not a decent defence, and the idea that anyone could be indifferent to being for or against them is not something that is easily understood.

    BTW You’re not the guy that shouts ‘F*** OFF DUFFY!!!!’ every 5 minutes, are you?

  46. TSFM says:

    areyouaccusingmeofmendacity says:

    Friday, January 18, 2013 at 21:10(Edit)
    ___________________________________________

    So Hairy Bee is the Bully Wee Fergie?
    🙂

  47. areyouaccusingmeofmendacity says:

    TSFM says:

    Friday, January 18, 2013 at 21:13

    If he is, he disguises it well, given how articulate he is on here! Although to be fair, having watched us lose to teams who aren’t fit to lace our boots,there are times when the Bully Wee Fergie does manage to encapsulate the feelings of the Clyde support in his own, to-the-point way!

  48. TSFM says:

    OT Sean Fallon story;

    Sean was sent by Bob Kelly to Falkirk to make an offer for Hughie Maxwell (around 1964).
    The Falkirk board had met just before Sean arrived and decided to accept no less than £7000. Sean arrived and said “I am authorised by Mr Kelly to offer no more than £14000!”

    Agape, the Falkirk chairman manged to stammer, “Oh dear – we will have to consider that. Would you mind waiting whilst we do?”

    Whilst Sean was entertained by someone on the ground staff for an hour, the Falkirk board, unable to believe their good fortune, played a round of Brag before emerging to tell Sean, “Reluctantly we accept your offer!”

    Wasn’t all bad for Sean though. Two years later he came away with Kenny Dalglish’s signature for a tenner 🙂

    Sweet, sweet man he was.

  49. neepheid says:

    StevieBC says:
    Friday, January 18, 2013 at 20:53
    ===
    Thanks for the link. I simply don’t follow McConville’s logic here. I agree that a “guilty” verdict is as inevitable as it can be (but bearing in mind the FTT result, of course!). What I fail to see is how the authorities can allow the results of games where players with dual contracts were fielded, to stand. I thought a 3 point deduction in such circumstances was automatic? Isn’t that how every previous case has been dealt with? And if there is a 3 point deduction for every game where unregistered players took part, then the titles will go automatically as a consequence, they don’t have to be “stripped” by the panel.

    From the authorities’ point of view, that is surely a more straightforward option than trying to collect a fine from a company which didn’t even exist at the time of the offences, and which, as McConville says, simply isn’t going to pay. Whereas the SFA/SPL have the absolute right to deduct points where the rules on player registration are breached. I don’t see how points deductions could be challenged in court, and certainly not by TRFC. Green’s argument that he bought the titles, so they can’t be taken away, is just about the most ridiculous statement that even he has come out with. If I innocently buy a bike, and it turns out to be stolen, the police will take it away from me, no matter how much I paid for it. If Green has been sold stolen goods, his recourse is with the seller, not the authorities.

    McConville also raises the question of international matches featuring wrongly registered RFC players. What I would say to that is that if LNS &co find that RFC players were not properly registered, then it will be for UEFA/FIFA to sort out the consequences. That will be totally out of the hands of the SFA. In fact the SFA will be in the dock for allowing the situation not only to arise, but to go unchallenged for so long. In fact but for the actions of HMRC, there would never have been a challenge.

  50. bailemeanach says:

    StevieBC says:
    Friday, January 18, 2013 at 20:53

    I like McConville, he disects the subject matter in great detail and translates the legalese for laymen such as myself. But he offers an opinion (admittedly more informed than myself) and can get it wrong. I hope he has called this one wrong, but he carries a strong case. Personally I can’t see a future for a company with a business plan as devised by Mr Green.

    Whether top flight football is 2,3 or 4 years away I don’t think matters. SPL players on SPL wages, SPL overheads for policing, staff, maintenance etc. At the same time huge reduction in ticket income. It doesnt add up. With no banking credit facility it looks like a deid duck to me.
    Green’s bluster about Barca youngsters, atlantic leagues, the Apple Dome etc is just nonsense like the hover pitch of old. I am friends with a few Rangers fans and they aren’t mugs – they give the heave ho to any bullshitting cold callers. Yet I’m dismayed that when it comes to the club, they seem to accept any auld cowboy that swings along. Murray, Whyte, Blue Knights, Green.. blind faith in anyone who has a sniff. If it was my club I would be seriously concerned at how they expect to break even, at best, in a climate where the high street giants are starting to drop off the scene

  51. blu says:

    Celtic Paranoia (@CelticParanoia) says:

    Friday, January 18, 2013 at 13:55
    As for deflection – it was you who was originally asked to provide examples where Celtic had been favoured in such a way by the SFA but chose to go down the deflection route with a straw man ‘we could never have known how Celtic fans would react to the liquidation’ rubbish. The point is they would – and did – prevent it.
    ========================================================
    You’re beng selective here CP – I gave two examples of where I thought Celtic and Rangers were treated more favourably than the rest of Scottish football. You haven’t responded to that. I’ve consistently been critical of the horrendous behaviour that led to Rangers demise and supported both RTC and TSFM efforts seeking fair play in Scottish football. Your ‘straw man’ name calling is, well… just that – maybe better to give it a rest. Just a final thought – Rangers fans seem to be putting their hands in their pockets in exactly the same way as Celtic fans did, and Dundee fans and Hearts fans did. On TSFM maybe we should be asking why we always pay and what return we get.

  52. Senior says:

    Neephied.

    ‘I agree that a “guilty” verdict is as inevitable as it can be’
    __________
    Once the guilty verdict is handed down there will be no need for a corrupt body to “strip titles”
    I assume that any club that ended up in second place due to cheating, will themselves assume what is rightfully theirs, the Title. I can’t see anyone objecting to this, it would make no sense.
    I see the IOC have stripped the Olympic Bronze medal from one of the cheats – yes the Bronze.

  53. StevieBC says:

    neepheid says:
    Friday, January 18, 2013 at 21:35

    StevieBC says:
    Friday, January 18, 2013 at 20:53
    ===

    What I fail to see is how the authorities can allow the results of games where players with dual contracts were fielded, to stand. I thought a 3 point deduction in such circumstances was automatic? Isn’t that how every previous case has been dealt with? …
    ======

    Yes, that is my thinking too.

    But where there could be uncertainty is where the authorities simply choose to disregard precedent, and make it up as they go along – as we have seen wrt The Rangers membership ‘transfer’ and being slotted into SFL3.

    A fine would not be commensurate with the level of rule breaking – and it could also harden negative opinions across the rest of Scottish football wrt to trust and the SFA/SPL/TRFC .

  54. Senior says:

    I can see it now, the corrupt bodies throwing the rule book at anyone who claims the Title after having been cheated out of it. The bodies are stupid and corrupt but I don’t think they are that stupid – or maybe…………..?
    To stave off the above scenario I think they will have little option but to award to the runners up The Title..

  55. Not The Huddle Malcontent says:

    Is winning all that counts? Are you absolutely sure about that?

    Very little has been said about this…..On December 2, Basque athlete Iván Fernández Anaya was competing in a cross-country race in Burlada, Navarre. He was running second, some distance behind race leader Abel Mutai – bronze medalist in the 3,000-meter steeplechase at the London Olympics. As they entered the finishing straight, he saw the Kenyan runner – the certain winner of the race – mistakenly pull up about 10 meters before the finish, thinking he had already crossed the line.

    Fernández Anaya quickly caught up with him, but instead of exploiting Mutai’s mistake to speed past and claim an unlikely victory, he stayed behind and, using gestures, guided the Kenyan to the line and let him cross first.

    Ivan Fernandez Anaya, a Basque runner of 24 years who is considered an athlete with a big future (champion of Spain of 5,000 meters in promise category two years ago) said after the test:
    “But even if they had told me that winning would have earned me a place in the Spanish team for the European championships, I wouldn’t have done it either. I also think that I have earned more of a name having done what I did than if I had won. And that is very important, because today, with the way things are in all circles, in soccer, in society, in politics, where it seems anything goes, a gesture of honesty goes down well.”

    He said at the beginning: unfortunately, very little has been said of the gesture. And it’s a shame. In my opinion, it would be nice to explain to children, so they do not think that sport is only what they see on TV: violent kicks in abundance, posh statements, fingers in the eyes of the enemy .

  56. briggsbhoy says:

    Why do we not print a statement which reflects the best of the points raised of why The Rangers cannot be Oldco instead of everybody up putting up something everyday.

  57. Not The Huddle Malcontent says:

    i posted that last article because, sadly, it is that attitude that is lacking in the game (and amongst supporters) these days

    in sport there are rules and there is the spirit of the game

    seems to me no one (in authority) cares about the game anymore…thats a big loss

  58. ianagain says:

    Briggs

    You may well have the answer. Park it under known or disputed facts.

  59. bailemeanach says:

    Anyone know what agenda is for the Thomson & Daly event, and if it will be available to view afterwards? They have been the big hitters in this story and bring shame upon the feckless hacks who call themselves sports journalists in Scotland

  60. iceman63 says:

    There are it seems to very real doubts about the LNS enquiry’s findings and whether they will ever actually come up with any – at least in the short to medium term. The enquiry may well use the supposed finding of “innocence” by the FTT to wriggle out of making a decision. I suspect an adjournment again until such time as the UTT reports.

    There is, in truth, no link between the two and at the FTT, Rangers admitted that they had failed to place the entire contractual agreement in the hands of the SFA, yet given the past record of all enquiries on this – I expect a subsequent delay upon any pretext – and so it will drag on.

    In truth the facts of the registration fraud were known to all involved by the end of March 2012, and yet ten months later no hearing has as yet been completed.

    A total joke – but further delays are the modus operandi of the authorities – it is in these that they seek to sap the will of those seeking a just and equitable solution and allow time and reality on the ground to dictate events.

  61. goosygoosy says:

    Stripping titles isn`t the ultimate punishment

    And even if it was it would soon be forgotten

    Nope

    The real punishment is falling under the control of Spivs
    Lots and lots of Spivs
    People with no moral compass
    People who lie for a living
    People who love exploiting the Gullible

    That`s the real punishment

    And it was self inflicted

    And won`t stop until another crisis erupts

  62. willmacufree says:

    blu says: Friday, January 18, 2013 at 21:46

    “I gave two examples of where I thought Celtic and Rangers were treated more favourably than the rest of Scottish football.”
    =========
    Blu,
    These examples were not of cases where Celtic received favourable treatment from the authorities. As I said to you then, I do not remember that ever happening. The examples you gave were of Celtic and Rangers negotiating the best deal for their two clubs. That’s a different proposition, and one which is under discussion. Is there a club which does not try to get the best deal for its stakeholders?

    It’s not long since this subject was aired before. The last time as I recall, the worst instance that could be found of Celtic getting special treatment was that CFC get the home dressing room when they play at Hampden. I don’t even know if it’s true or not.

    Maybe it’s time for an embargo on this topic.

  63. timabhouy says:

    Hey h.p can you repost your deleted post on c.q.n ?

  64. ianagain says:

    Briggs
    I didnt mean you park it. I meant WE should archive it in the list or whatever.

  65. goosygoosy says:
    Friday, January 18, 2013 at 22:53

    That`s the real punishment..

    Agreed..the pain for which will be regular & severe and will be endured for many years to come,long after BDO-LNS-UTT-league reconstruction, blue square etc,etc…

  66. Flocculent Apoidea says:

    I’m not the Clyde Fergie! Anyone who says I am can take their €$¥# and @€##}{*$ stick it up their €¥%^*$#} *%#€$. You may opt not to, however.

    And it’s Woolly Bee, not Hairy Bee.

  67. stevensanph says:

    So I take a few days off reading and come back to a civil war! Is that what eating horse meat in sub zero temps causes?!

    While I don’t really agree to the end of the Newco/Oldco debate, it is something that has been going on for a good 6 months now, and for 5 of those months I haven’t seen anything added to the discussion. Therefore I fully support the decision from TSFM to end that conversation here. For anyone wanting to continue it do so off this blog. I provided a starting place for you right here, along with the ‘missing’ post

    Newco? Oldco? Discuss here…

    (please – no more on this thread about this…. there is more important things to discuss now…)

    Onto more important matters… I just read a post of football365 warning about complacency against cheating, following the admission from Armstrong.

    http://www.football365.com/f365-says/8407466/Complacency-Reigns-Corruption-Spreads

    What I couldn’t stop thinking however was that cheating on that scale has already harmed football, namely Scottish Football.

    With the LNS inquiry coming up soon, it will be interesting to see how deep the corruption in the game goes. Anything other than a 3-0 defeat for every game involving an ineligible player will lead me to believe that the incompetence displayed during the summer from D&P was done so with the prior knowledge that whatever happened, the law, courts, and dare I say it, government would be there to bail them out.

    Reversal of results has to be the bare minimum. Anything less and I really don’t care what form reconstruction takes in future years, as I will not be spending time supporting a corrupt sport.

  68. stevensanph says:
    Saturday, January 19, 2013 at 07:01
    3 0 Rate This
    So I take a few days off reading and come back to a civil war! Is that what eating horse meat in sub zero temps causes?!

    While I don’t really agree to the end of the Newco/Oldco debate, it is something that has been going on for a good 6 months now, and for 5 of those months I haven’t seen anything added to the discussion. Therefore I fully support the decision from TSFM to end that conversation here. For anyone wanting to continue it do so off this blog. I provided a starting place for you right here, along with the ‘missing’ post

    Newco? Oldco? Discuss here…

    (please – no more on this thread about this…. there is more important things to discuss now…)

    ————–

    Cheers Steven, nice to have you back, and with some sensible advice. On the cycling, the only reason they seem not to want to promote those who came 2nd to 4th is that there is the belief that finding a clean rider could prove difficult!

    If the LNS decision goes the way of the original SPL findings I’d like to see the other teams promoted to the honours. But the usual PR machines are gearing up for this next phase via the most tabloid of the phone-ins and newspapers.

    None of them point out though that the honours in question currently belong to the club in liquidation. In reality, I can’t see the big fuss about stripping of titles. Any fan with a sense of fair play would want titles given to the rightful winner. Once the bluster and spin stops I reckon the thoughtful TRFC fans would see that it was fair.

    But it all hangs on the law lords. A strange situation really, when football authorities cannot follow their own rules, and make a decision one way or the other. A lot hangs on this ruling.

  69. 2 Wee points.

    1. Re all the shouting about TRFC joining another league set up. Would this be in Mr Greens best interest as he would receive over £300,000 if this were to happen. Is this maybe clouding his thinking and his judgement?

    2. Reconstruction. Surely if the powers that be have decided that reconstruction is what we require to save our current corrupt and demoralised league set up then the first thing we have to put in place would be the new governing body. A body of properly elected officials. Only then can a process of fully assessing the merits of any reconstruction proposals put before them begin. This way we can ensure that what is best for the game is highest on the agenda and not individual/group/team ulterior motives. Proper consultation with all interested parties should also ensure that the fans have a voice here as we are the ‘glue’ that will hold the whole process and subsequent outcome together.

    Whilst I believe the current set up is in fact riddled with corruption I don’t buy into the ‘demoralised league set up’ At this moment in time I see no immediate requirement to charge headlong into complete restructuring at what would seem to be very short notice with any proposals that have emerged so far lacking proper investigation into, and proposals for, enhancing the grass roots requirements of the game itself.

    I believe that it is the widely held view that todays SPL may not be the best league in the world but it is certainly the best we have had in years with respect to quality of matches being played allied to the fact that most teams are seeing a rise in attendance figures. This to me proves that we still have a product that is very sellable. With proper, honest and transparent governance and a league set up free from corruption I honestly believe the game can and will prosper in Scotland. Reconstruction may be deemed necessary so we should take our time and consider all things relevant and try to predict where the game will need to be in 15 – 20 years’ time and plan accordingly instead of embarking on the tried and tested blinkered, short term, its all about the money type thinking we have embraced in the past. If this all takes 3-5 years to bring to fruition then so be it. The powers that be will be better off spending this time now to ensure we get it right for the sake of future generations of football fans.

  70. finloch says:

    I read Paul McConville’s latest post where he forecasts a financial slap on the wrist as the outcome from the LNS meeting a few days time.
    Can we as a community help LNS in his task by providing a list of recent rule breaches and the penalties awarded by the governing bodies.
    I understand (but might be wrong) that it is an SFA enquiry being held by the SPL so that SFA can be the appellate. If that is the case then two obvious ones which should be drawn to his attention are
    1 The age breaches at an Annan youth team
    2 The reversal of a cup result of Spartans versus Culter (I think it was Culter) for a missing something on the second page of a signing form.

    There are more and collectively we can provide LNS with some precedents to help him see how serious our three administration entities (SPL, SFA, SFL) take any non compliance with their rules and statutes.

    When we get our list together we can then send it to those involved and maybe one of the MSM will see it of interest.

    OK maybe not so we’ll simply email it.