Why the Beast of Armageddon Failed to Show?

A Blog for Scottish Football Monitor by Stuart Cosgrove

At the height of summer of discontent I was asked to contribute to a BBC radio show with Jim Traynor and Jim Spence. ‘Armageddon’ had just been pronounced and if the media were to be believed Scotland was about to freeze over in a new ice-age: only a cold darkness lay ahead.

To get the radio-show off to a healthy and pretentious start I began by saying that Scottish football was experiencing an “epistemological break”. It was an in-joke with Jim Spence, who I have known since we were both teenage ‘suedeheads.’ I was a mouthy young St Johnstone fan and Jim was an Arabian sand-dancer. But even in those distant days, we shared a mutual distrust of the ‘old firm’ and in our separate ways wanted a better future for our clubs. We both grew up to become products of the fanzine era, Jim as a writer for Dundee United’s ‘The Final Hurdle’ and me as a staff writer for the NME. Without ever having to say it, we had both engaged in a guerrilla-war against what Aberdeen’s Willie Miller once characterised as “West Coast Bias”.

The term ‘epistemological break’ was shamelessly borrowed from French Marxist philosophy. It means a fundamental change in the way we construct and receive knowledge and although I used it on air as a wind-up to test Spencey’s significantly less-reliable Dundee schooling, deep down I meant it.

Social Media has proved to be one of the greatest disruptions in the history of the football supporter – greater than the brake clubs of the 19th century, the football specials on the 1970s; or the fanzine movement of the post-punk era. The pace of change in the way we send, receive and interrogate information has been so dynamic that it has wrong-footed administrators, asset strippers and sports journalists, alike. No matter who you support we are living through media history.

2012 had just witnessed an unprecedented summer of sport. The Olympics provided a snapshot of how sudden and pervasive the shift to social media has become. Over 40% of UK adults claim to have posted comments on websites, blogs or social networking about the Olympics and in younger age-groups that figure tips conclusively to a majority – 61% of 16-24’s posted Olympic comments. Think about that figure for a moment. Well over half of the young people in the UK are now participants in social media and pass comment on sport. The genie is out of the bottle and it will never be forced back. That is the main reason that Armageddon never happened: we no longer live in an age where the media can guarantee our compliance.

On the first day of the 2012-13-season, Rangers were in the deep throes of administration and facing certain liquidation. With no accounts to meet the criteria for SPL membership, one among a body of rules which the old Rangers had themselves been an architect of, the new Rangers could not be granted entry without a wholesale abandonment of the rules. It was not to be.

St Johnstone launched their new season at Tynecastle so I travelled with misplaced hope. We were soundly beaten 2-0 and both Hearts goals were entirely merited. On the day, I did a quick if unscientific survey of two supporters’ buses – the Barossa Saints Club, a more traditional lads-bus and the ‘208 Ladies’ a predominantly female and family-friendly bus. On both buses, over 75% of fans had mobile phones with 3G internet access and the majority of them posted updates or pictures before, during or after the match. They mostly posted via micro-blogging sites such as Facebook or Twitter, many commenting on the game, their day-out and the surroundings. Most were speaking to friends or rival fans. Some were publishing pictures and updating forums or blogs. And when he second a decisive goal went in some were undoubtedly taking stick from Gort, Webby DFC and DeeForLife, the pseudonyms of prominent Dundee fans, who as the newly promoted ‘Club 12’ were suddenly and very temporarily above St Johnstone in the SPL.

By my rough calculations, well over half the St Johnstone support was web-connected. I have no reason to think the Hearts supporters were any different. This small experiment reflects an unprecedented shift in the balance of communication in Scottish football and in the truest sense it is an ‘epistemological break’ with past forms of spectatorship. Social media has been widely misrepresented by old-style radio ‘phone-ins’ and by journalism’s ancien regime. The presumption is that people who are connected to the web are at home, in dingy rooms where they foam at the mouth frustrated by loneliness and mental illness. The term ‘internet bampots’ (coined by Hugh Keevins) and ‘keyboard warriors’ (Gordon Strachan) speaks to a world that is fearful of the web, irked by alternative opinions, and the threat that the new media poses to the traditional exchange of knowledge.

It further assumes that opinion from social networks is naïve, ill-informed, or unreasonable. Whilst some of this may be true, mostly it is not. No one would dispute that there are small enclaves of truly despicable people using social networks and comment sites, but they are overwhelmingly outnumbered by the multitude of fans who simply want to talk about their team and share their dreams and memories.

Social media is porous. By that I mean it has cracks, lacunae and fissures. This inevitably means that information leaks out. It can be shared, released and in some cases becomes so energetic it becomes a virus. It is no longer possible to ‘keep secrets’, to withhold information and to allow indiscretions to pass unnoticed. Newspapers have been caught in a whirlwind of change where views can be instantly challenged, authority quickly questioned and pronouncements easily disproved. Many papers – almost all in decline – have been forced to close down their comments forums. Undoubtedly some of that is due to breaches of the rules, the cost of moderation, and the rise in awareness of hate crimes. But another significant factor is that ordinary fans were consistently challenging the opinions and ‘facts’ that newspapers published.

Talking down to fans no longer works and we now have evidence – Armageddon did not happen. The beast that was supposed to devour us all was a toothless fantasy. In the more abrasive language of the terraces – Armageddon shat-it and didn’t turn up.

In one respect the myth of Armageddon was an entirely predictable one. Tabloid newspapers make money from scaring people – health scares, prisoners on the run, fear of terrorism, anxiety about young people, and most recently ‘fear’ of Scottish independence is their stock in trade. Almost every major subject is raised as a spectre to be fearful of. Most newspapers were desperate to ‘save Rangers’ since they themselves feared the consequences of losing even more readership. It was easier to argue that a hideous financial catastrophe would befall Scottish football unless Rangers were fast-tracked back into the SPL. Newspapers found common cause with frightened administrators who could not imagine a world without Rangers, either.

So we were invited to endorse one of the greatest circumlocutions of all time – unless you save a club that has crashed leaving millions of pounds of debt, the game is financially doomed. You would struggle to encounter this bizarre logic in any other walk of life. Unless Rick Astley brings out a new album music will die. That is what they once argued and many still do. That is how desperately illogical the leadership in Scottish football had become.

Armageddon was a tissue of inaccuracies from the outset. It tried to script a disaster-movie of chaotic failure and financial disaster and at the very moment when senior administrators should have been fighting for the livelihood of the league, they were briefing against their own business.

Armageddon was a big inarticulate beast but it faced a mightier opponent – facts. One by one the clubs published their annual accounts. Although this was against the backdrop of a double-dip recession and fiercely difficult economic circumstances it was not all doom and gloom. The arrival of Club 12 (Dundee) meant higher crowds and the potential for increased income at Aberdeen, Dundee United and St Johnstone. To this day, this simple fact remains unfathomable to many people in the Glasgow-dominated media. The arrival of Ross County meant an exciting new top-tier local derby for Inverness Caley Thistle and a breath of fresh air for the SPL. St Johnstone insisted on the first ever SPL meeting outside Glasgow to reflect the new northern and eastern geo-politics of the Scottish game.

European football meant new income streams for Motherwell. Of course times were tight, football is never free from the ravages of the economy and some clubs predictably showed trading losses. But the underlying reasons were always idiosyncratic and inconsistent never consistent across the board. Inverness had an unprecedented spate of injuries and over-shot their budgets for healthcare and so published a loss £378,000.

Meanwhile Dundee United published healthy accounts having sold David Goodwillie to Blackburn. Celtic reached the Champion’s League group stages with all the new wealth it will bequeath. St Johnstone – led by the ultra-cautious Brown family – had already cut the cost of their squad, bidding farewell to the most expensive players Francisco Sandaza and Lee Croft. The club also benefited from compensation for their departed manager, Derek McInnes and player-coach, Jody Morris. Paradoxically, Bristol City had proven to be more important to the club’s income than Rangers. Again this was not part of the script and proved unfathomable (or more accurately irrelevant) to most in the Glasgow media.

Hearts failed to pay players on time due to serious restraints on squad costs and internal debt. They were duly punished for their repeated misdemeanours. Motherwell and St Mirren despite the economic challenges were navigating different concepts of fan ownership. By November most clubs – with the exception of Celtic – were showing increased SPL attendance on the previous season. Far from the scorched earth failure that we were told was inevitable what has emerged is a more complex eco-system of financial management, in which local dynamics and a more mature cost-efficient reality was being put in place.

It may well be that Armageddon was the last desperate caricature of a form of media that was already in terminal decline. Flash back to 1967 when Scottish football had a so-called ‘golden age’. There was European success, we tamed England at Wembley and names like Law and Baxter brightened dark nights. Back then access to knowledge was a very narrow funnel. Only a small cadre of privileged journalists had access to the managers and players, and so fans waited dutifully for the Daily Record to arrive at their door to tell them what was happening. That system of ‘elite access to knowledge’ was in its last decadent throes nearly thirty years later, when David Murray would dispense wisdom to his favoured journalists. We now know they drank fine wine and ate succulent lamb in Jersey and the most loyal attended Murray’s 50th birthday party at Gleneagles. One journalist was so proud of his invite he danced round the editorial office mocking those who had not been invited. This was the early height of the Rangers EBT era but it is now clear that difficult questions went unasked by either journalists or by football administrators.

Although it may not suit the narrative of this particular blog my first realisation that David Murray’s empire was living on leveraged debt was from a small cadre of Rangers fans. It was around the early years of the Rangers Supporter’s Trust (RST) and they were determined to shake more democracy from the Ibrox boardroom. Whilst real fans of the club argued from the outside, the press took Murray at his loquacious word. He was in many respects their benefactor, their visionary – their moonbeam.

By the 1990s onwards, football journalism had ritualised and festered around the inner sanctums at Ibrox. This was an era where relevance meant being invited to a ‘presser’ at Murray Park, having Ally’s mobile or playing golf with ‘Juke Box,’ ‘Durranty’ or ‘Smudger’. Many journalists, showing a compliant lack of self-awareness, would use these nicknames as if conveyed closeness, familiarity or friendship. It is desperately sad that careers have been built on such paltry notions of access and such demeaning obsequiousness.

Around this period I had become a freelance radio-presenter and was presenting Off the Ball with my friend Tam Cowan, a Motherwell fan. We both wanted to fashion a show which saw football not trough its familiar narratives, but through the lens of the ‘diddy’ teams, a term so demeaning that we tried to reclaim it. Refusing to peddle the inevitability of ‘old firm’ power we sensed that journalistic compliance at Ibrox was now so ingrained that it was ripe for satirising. This was the main reason that Off the Ball branded itself as ‘petty and ill-informed.’ It was a self-mocking antidote to those journalists that could ‘exclusively reveal’ breaking stories from ‘impeccable sources,’ which usually meant they had heard it on the golf-course, from Walter, a man who needed no surname.

Many fans are astonished when I tell them how the journalism of this era actually functioned. On Champions League nights, journalists from opposing papers gathered together to agree what to write. Circulation was in decline, money was tight, agency copy was on the increase and foreign trips were under-scrutiny. No one dared miss the ‘big story’. So sports journalists who commonly boasted about their toughness and who ‘feared no one’ were often so fearful of returning home having missed an angle, that they agreed by consensus to run with variations of the same story. Celtic fans may wish to recoil at the image – but journalists would go into a ‘huddle’ at the end of a press-conference to agree the favoured line.

So the summer of 2012 witnessed an ‘epistemological break’ in how knowledge and information was exchanged. But let me go further and taunt Jim Spence one more time. It was the summer we also witnessed an ‘amygdala-crisis’ exposing the way the media works in Scotland. Amygdala is the nuclei in the brain that manages our tolerance for risk and is the key that often unlocks creative thinking. Many people in relatively high places in the media – a creative industry – demonstrated that they could not conceive of change, nor could they imagine what football would look like if Rangers were not playing in the SPL. They not only resisted change but lacked the imagination to think beyond it. A common language began to emerge that tried to ward off risk and an almost a childlike fear of the dark. ‘Scottish football needs a strong Rangers,’ ‘But there will no competition’; ‘other clubs will suffer’; ‘Draw a line in the sand’; ‘It was one man – Craig Whyte’, ‘They’ve been punished enough’ and of course, the daddy of them all – ‘Armageddon.’

The biggest single barrier to change was the lingering and outmoded notion that Rangers subsidised Scottish football. As a supporter of a club that had spent seven economically stable years in a league that Rangers have never played in made me deeply suspicious and I was in the words of the we-forums ‘seething’ that St Johnstone were portrayed as somehow ‘dependent’ on a club that was already fatefully insolvent. Because so little is known about the experience of the fans of smaller clubs, they are often misrepresented. For seven years my friends and I, travelled home and away in the First Division, often narrowly missing out on promotion as rival clubs like Gretna, Dundee and Livingston all used money they did not have to ‘buy’ success. It remains an incontrovertible fact that St Johnstone FC has been among the most consistent victims of fiscal misdemeanour in Scottish football. That is the irreducible issue. Several clubs have very real reasons to loathe financial mismanagement, rogue-trading and those that gain unfair advantage on the back of unserviceable debt.

Social media has allowed these smaller incremental versions of history to be told when the established media had no interest in telling them. Blogs can dig deeper than the back pages ever can and fans are now more likely to meet on Facebook than on a supporter’s bus. Many players now bypass the press completely and tweet directly with fans. Rio Ferdinand’s recent attack on racism in English football has been conducted entirely via social media, over the heads of the press. In the Rangers Tax Case context, restricted documents are regularly shared online, where they can be analysed and torn apart. Those with specialist skills such as insolvency, tax expertise or accountancy can lend their skills to a web forum and can therefore dispute official versions of events.

Not all social media is good. Open-access has meant a disproportionate rise in victim culture. The ‘easily-offended’ prowl every corner of the web desperate to find a morsel that will upset them but that is a small price to pay for greater transparency and even the most ardent bore is no excuse for limiting the free exchange of information.

We have witnessed a summer of seismic change. A discredited era that largely relied on ‘elite access to knowledge’ has all but passed away and information, however complex or seemingly unpalatable, can no longer be withheld from fans. The days of being ‘dooped’ are over.

It has been a privilege to participate in the summer of discontent and I yearn for even greater change to come. Bring it on.

Stuart Cosgrove
Stuart Cosgrove is a St Johnstone fan. He was previously Media Editor of the NME and is now Director of Creative Diversity at Channel 4, where he recently managed coverage of the Paralympics, London 2012. At the weekend he presents the BBC Scotland football show ‘Off the Ball’ with Tam Cowan. He writes here in a personal capacity.

About SFM
The Scottish Football Monitor is following the lead of RangersTaxCase in an attempt to hold the Scottish mainstream media to account and to question. If they do not ask the difficult questions, we will.

3,764 Responses to Why the Beast of Armageddon Failed to Show?

  1. stevensanph says:

    Stunney…

    Great to have the morning papers back 🙂

  2. exiledcelt says:

    Stunney – welcome back – have missed the “morning” (my afternoon) papers!!

  3. stmungo69 says:

    As instructed TSFM…
    Stuart Cosgrove’s well written and scathing blog is still rippling over the blogosphere and now because of the Hearts crisis, his detractors (GIRUY targets), have an easy ‘in’ to try and undermine his robust rebuttal on their ‘Armageddon’ line. Now, I’m pretty sure Stuart knew what he was getting himself into, when he took it upon himself to embarrass people like Traynor and his Branch Sevconians, Football’s Governing bodies and various media hacks – both verbally and in print. But he will have seriously pissed off some very influential and vindictive people in the broadcasting world; it’s now a slam dunk that a few of these compromised lackeys, hacks and PR folk will be trying their damnedest to malign and derail him at every opportunity. And it would not surprise me if someone tries to get him ‘bumped’ from that Ibrox friendly, radio phone-in show (The Beeb’s). Having a high media profile, a new ’internet bampot’ diploma, (to add to his many others), co – presenting 3 BBC radio programmes and constantly challenging lies and spin, has seriously upset our MSM’s balance of bias.
    For the rest of us though; what’s not to like about a committed fan, who’s doing a decent job of highlighting the pernicious side of Scottish football, it also helps that he is diametrically opposed to the views he constantly hears oozing from Jabba’s jowls.

  4. Lord Wobbly says:

    stunney says:
    Friday, November 9, 2012 at 03:21
    4 2 Rate This

    http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/football/rangers-hearing-deferred-by-spl.19373018

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    The headline implies that the hearing has been deferred. The body of the text states that, although it is likely (due to the lawyer being involved in a car crash), no decision has yet been taken.

    And it was thoughtful of them to place an advertisement for a car below the article. I really hope it wasn’t a Honda Civic that was involved in the crash.

    Hmmm….lawyer investigating Rangers injured in car crash….

    …nah, I’m sure that’s a conspiracy theory too far.

    Isn’t it? 😯

  5. Lord Wobbly says:

    It’s really REALLY good to see you back Stunney 😀

    Phew!

  6. nowoldandgrumpy says:

    Jabba wants an emergency reconstruction.

    http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/if-hearts-go-down-watch-other-clubs-1424368#.UJxEwXjjHpM.twitter

    If Hearts go down watch other clubs collapse like dominoes

    8 Nov 2012 00:01
    THE possible collapse of Hearts should not be rejoiced by anyone as another club exiting the SPL can only spell disaster for Scotland’s top flight.

    Rudi Skacel of Hearts lifts the Scottish Cup last season
    HEARTS won’t be the last.

    They are swaying on the edge of oblivion but there are at least two other clubs only one step, one unexpected bill, behind them.

    Despite the bravado and bombast of some fans and commentators who stupidly, and crassly, responded to the troubles of Rangers with glee rather than dismay and alarm, Scottish football is not booming. The exact opposite is the truth.

    It isn’t Armageddon, not yet anyway. But it is a nightmare, most certainly for Hearts fans.

    Although their club’s financial meltdown can’t be blamed entirely on the loss of revenue caused by Rangers’ plight, there should be no doubt the Ibrox club’s absence from the SPL is having a debilitating effect. Not only on clubs but on broadcast and corporate partners as well.

    Confidence in the top flight has flown and this rejoicing in and gloating when a club is dragged over the edge by the debt weight makes no sense. It is malicious and illogical.

    Do not be fooled by the cheerleaders because the SPL cannot afford to lose another batch of fans.

    If Hearts crumble others will surely fall but for the dimwitted and those who find perverse delight in the anguish of others, let’s try to simplify things by asking one question: Would Hibernian’s finances be diminished significantly by the loss of two Edinburgh derbies?

    You bet. And remember, only last week Easter Road chairman Rod Petrie made it clear if fans want manager Pat Fenlon to be active in the transfer market they’ll have to start turning up in larger numbers.

    And only yesterday Sky announced they’d be televising the Scottish Cup fourth-round tie between Hibs and Hearts which was hardly surprising.

    After all, this is the biggest derby the Scottish game has to offer, and we can all be certain that without the Edinburgh fixture the broadcasters, who have already cut back on their financial support because of where Rangers are, would pull the plug on their SPL deals.

    They’d still have Dundee derbies, provided the Dens Park club stay in the SPL, but those fixtures won’t tempt Sky, or anyone else to keep paying out.

    Scottish football would have lost just about all appeal and we would be witnesses to the domino effect.

    This is precisely why the crisis facing Hearts should be causing alarm in more than the Easter Road boardroom but because of the twisted nature of large numbers of fans there will be the suspicion Vladimir Romanov is bluffing.

    They’ll reason the old Russian-born Lithuanian banker just wants more cash from his club’s supporters before he puts any more into his club but the evidence suggests he won’t.

    It is more likely Romanov won’t throw in any more. Surely it’s been clear for more than a season he’s been struggling to divert enough cash towards Gorgie where players and employees no longer know if they’ll be paid on time.

    Hearts are already serving a 60-day registration embargo because of these failures and the wages are due again in eight days. What chance now of them being paid, not on time but ever?

    Romanov’s steel plant workers in Bosnia haven’t been paid since July and they’ll probably be on a pittance so yesterday’s revelation is unlikely to be part of some elaborate bluff.

    Hearts went public because they had no choice. They laid it on the line and by spelling out the seriousness of their current plight they weren’t just making a statement, they were sending out a begging letter.

    After 138 years they are broke and going under.

    They are pleading for help with director Sergejus Fedotovas stressing the club’s future is in the fans’ hands.

    His message was distressing and made it clear Tynecastle could be padlocked after Hearts’ match against St Mirren a week on Saturday after it emerged HMRC have issued a winding-up order over an unpaid £450,000 bill. This on the back of the club’s recent admission they are facing a tax tribunal over a £1.75million claim.

    Hearts, who owe £22m to Romanov’s investment company Ukio Banko Investicine Grupe, are currently trying to raise £1.79m through a shares issue.

    UBIG have scaled back dramatically on their support funding and are unlikely to plough in any more but would Romanov risk putting Hearts into administration to save them knowing he’d then lose control of the one asset, Tynecastle?

    On the other hand it must be doubtful if he’d be willing, or allowed by UBIG investors, to continue running up the debt owed to them by keeping Hearts alive. Barely.

    Hearts didn’t say they were begging but did point out clearly that they are seeking “emergency backing” and stressed “this is not so much a request as a necessity”.

    It was an impassioned plea. “This isn’t a bluff, this isn’t scaremongering. This is reality.

    “Discussions on whose name is above the door and talk about how the money has been spent is all natural but quite simply worthless at this moment in time.

    “The only valid debate now is how can you help the club.

    “Without your help now, we could be entering the final days of the club’s existence. There are limited options for the directors to take to avoid the catastrophic consequences that a funding shortfall would mean for the club.”

    If Hearts are put into administration then under the SPL’s new rules they’d be hit with a 17-point penalty, their players would be sold off when the winter transfer window opens and relegation would be inevitable. But last night Tynecastle sources were saying it could be worse than that. The club could die, was their grim message.

    In fact, Hearts’ statement made the severity of the situation clear, warning we could be witnessing “the start of a painful process that will affect every one of us and could lead to far more damaging actions that threaten the very existence of the club”.

    Others are already under threat – Dunfermline asked Falkirk to bring a midweek game scheduled for next April forward to last weekend just to help put money in the coffers – but without Hearts and the dire consequences which would follow, Scottish football would be in meltdown.

    If Hearts can’t fulfil their fixtures the SPL would be thrown into turmoil.

    Armageddon might then be upon us and the only solution might be emergency league reconstruction.

  7. mirrenman says:

    Chris McLaughlin ‏@BBCchrismclaug
    Very worrying times for #Hearts. Just spoke to someone close to the situation. Says if HMRC money is paid it would be a ‘minor miracle.’

  8. bl00tered says:

    See Sandy Jardine’s threat to remove himself from the SFA Hall fo Fame….

    He’s not actually in it, as far as I can see,

    http://www.scotlandfootballstats.co.uk/player-statistics/sfa-hall-of-fame/

    It looks to me, asthough you need a minimum of 50 Scottish caps to be entered ( I could be wrong ). From Wiki he only has 38.

    What am I missing here, or has Sandy laid claim to Danny Mc.Grain’s history?

  9. angus1983 says:

    Lord Wobbly says:
    Friday, November 9, 2012 at 07:56

    And it was thoughtful of them to place an advertisement for a car below the article. I really hope it wasn’t a Honda Civic that was involved in the crash.
    ——
    Wobbly – that’ll be adverts generated by your googling and surfing habits. I get an ad about mobile phones for some reason (which is funny, because I have an old Honda myself and spend half my time searching the net for spares for it!).

    I’d assumed that all this faffing about with releasing the FTTT result (how long does it take to redact a document to DPA standards, even 300 pages of it, as a matter of priority?) was to try and delay it until after the SPL hearing had started.

    What they gonna do now?

    (Hope the car crash boy is OK.)

  10. tomtomaswell says:

    Any feedback from the Sevco press conference that was scheduled for yesterday?

  11. angus1983 says:

    bl00tered says:
    Friday, November 9, 2012 at 08:19

    See Sandy Jardine’s threat to remove himself from the SFA Hall fo Fame….
    ——

    According to Wikipedia, he’s in it (the SFA Hall of Fame, rather than the Scotland Caps one) …

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Football_Hall_of_Fame

    Sardine would do well to remove himself from it anyway, being that he’s shown himself to be such a twisted f@nny recently.

  12. Senior says:

    ‘The tax money is a different issue all-together. I do not deny that the Rangers had history and lots of it and can lay claim to it, however it is what it is HISTORY.’

    _________________________

    Of course history must include all to be believable. It must include 12 years of cheating on a ‘off the radar scale’.
    It must include the dozens of small businesses, and individuals who were destroyed by that cheating, it must include the relinquishing of all titles stolen in those 12 years. It must include the decent clubs who, to compete with this cheating, were brought to their knees, if not totally obliterated altogether.

  13. goosygoosy says:

    Its all pretty obvious how the wheels of justice turn in our little country

    Delayed FTT result = delayed LN enquiry = delayed Sevco fundraising = Sevco Administration
    = Sevco liquidation =Sevco Newco with no transfer ban looking for a home
    Meanwhile
    Hearts Administration =Hearts liquidation= Armageddon without Sevco Newco in SPL

    = league reconstruction = Newco Sevco replaces Hearts in SPL

    But to ensure justice is seen to be done

    Newco Hearts + no lunatic fringe = No 3rd div

    =Newco Hearts in East of Scotland league
    .
    ………..If they provide a hefty bond to SFA

  14. angus1983 says:

    Senior says:
    Friday, November 9, 2012 at 09:24

    It must include the dozens of small businesses, and individuals who were destroyed by that cheating,
    ——

    I throughly agree, Senior.

    But … is there any evidence of people actually going out of business on account of not being paid by RFC(IL)?

  15. madbhoy24941 says:

    It depends on how you view the non-payment of tax Angus, there are currently schools, swimming pools and other public services being closed due to lack of funds. I see them as a functioning business.

    If Rangers, Hearts or any other organization or individual refuses to live within their means, which lead to them defaulting on tax then as far as I am concerned, they are indirectly responsible for the closure of a public service which normally leads to someone losing a job.

    So I would argue, even if I cannot pin a specific school closure to Rangers, that there is evidence that people have gone out of business because there is not enough revenue available from the source responsible for generating that revenue (HMRC). There is not enough because some businesses are not paying what they are owed. One of those responsible is Rangers Football Club.

  16. Palacio67 says:

    goosygoosy says:
    Friday, November 9, 2012 at 09:31

    Goosy, shirley they cannot put sevco in the SPL, that would cause chaos in the fixtures in the bottom tier as well. Would’nt the clubs have to vote? I am sure there is a lot of chairmen in the first and second divisions who would have something to say.
    Anyway if they are shoogled in anytime sooner, and my Club do and say nothing, then I will be finished with Scottish football, even after attending the Barcelona match less than 48 hours ago and witnessing one of the best games ever. It will break my heart.

  17. briggsbhoy says:

    Senior says:
    Friday, November 9, 2012 at 09:24

    History must include the good the bad and the ugly and was it just 12 years I wonder? A small part of that cheating went on I’m sure outwith that club but on their behalf, is that a conspiracy theory?

  18. bect67 says:

    I feel that a scaremongering MSM will now actively support administration for HMFC as being for the good of the club, while, to safeguard the future of other clubs at risk, using this argument to promote their agenda of getting Sevco into the SPL asap to prevent Armagedddon 2 – ignoring the fact that Hearts’ case is completely different from that of the Govan ‘mob’.

    However, thankfully, they have no actual power/influence – this lies with the SPL/SFL clubs who have already shown their hand.

    Off topic, in terms of achievements, Sevco have still to emulate the two other Govan clubs (St Anthonys and Benburb, who have had varying degrees of success in the junior game) before setting their sights on anything higher.

    As a Celtic fan, with great memories of many ‘jousts’ with The Jam Tarts’ over the years, I wish them all the best.

  19. torrejohnbhoy says:

    Palacio67 says:
    Friday, November 9, 2012 at 10:04

    goosygoosy says:
    Friday, November 9, 2012 at 09:31
    =====================================================================
    I’m not sure of the legalities but here’s how I see it.
    If HMFC went into administration they’d be deducted 17pts but would still be in the SPL(leave relegation for another day).They can worry about next season later,right now they just have to survive.Romanov would have to write-off nearly all the debt but surely could retain the assets due to securities held.HMRC would get next to nothing.
    If liquidated,assets are sold to satisfy the creditors(Mostly Romanov).Hard but not impossible that someone would pay any real money at this time so Romanov could probably retain the assets.HMRC still get next to nothing.
    These might not be satisfactory options but I think they’re realistic.
    Jabba and his ilk,however,see this as the ideal opportunity to shoehorn TRFC into the top league.He obviously thinks that the fans who wouldn’t accept the cheating last time round will just roll over this time.They’ve learned nothing!.
    Let’s hope the SFA/SPL/SFL have learnt.If not then armaggedon may well be round the corner after all

  20. angus1983 says:

    madbhoy24941 says:
    Friday, November 9, 2012 at 10:03

    It depends on how you view the non-payment of tax Angus, there are currently schools, swimming pools and other public services being closed due to lack of funds. I see them as a functioning business.
    ——

    Aye, I know. I do see that side of it clearly.

    Meanwhile, I haven’t had time to go over yesterday evening’s post yet. Is everyone aware that you can go and preview your own “share certificate” at the following site now:

    http://www.buyrangers.org/

    You’d be putting in your £125 to buy part of “Rangers Football Club”, mind – whatever that is! 🙂

  21. Charlie Brown says:

    Hi guys – have spent the last couple of days understandably immersed in Hearts issues to think about much else however an amazing win for Celtic the other night, really quite incredible, well done!

    Regards matters at Tynecastle here’s my current thoughts on the situation although the initial response by fans has been tremendous and unlike the Rangers we seem to want to do everything possible to pay our way and keep our club alive with a Sevco solution very much the last resort nuclear option unlike Rangers where it seems to have always been Plan A.

    Anyway here is what I posted earlier on a Hearts forum.
    =====================================================================

    We are entering the final few months of the Romanov era and the club can and will be saved if that is what the fans want and will support.

    We are unlikely to be liquidated unless UBIG agreed to that happening but that isn’t rational within their interests and they could easily have let that happen at any time prior to this or without a share issue so I think we can discount that which means there is unlikely to be a need for any ‘Newco’ HMFC at least at this stage.

    Which basically leave us 2 options – we can either raise enough funds and see out the season relatively intact whilst we negotiate the end of UBIG’s ownership or else we can’t meet the tax demands and have to go into administration to seek shelter from HMRC winding up orders.

    That probably brings matters to a head quicker ie the debts would get wiped out albeit possibly at loss of ownership of the stadium unless a buyer can offer enough for the football club and stadium in it’s entirety whilst going into administration would also force immediate costs cuts to make the company financially viable again altho sadly at the cost of player & staff redundancies.

    Administration would also come with sporting penalties which could very well put us in serious jeopardy of being relegated unless we can push Dundee below us by winning enough points clear between now and the end of season.

    Best case: We stay out of administration and survive to the end of the season and put the club on a sustainable financial footing.

    Middle case: the playing cuts and points deductions of going into administration puts us in severe danger of relegation but at least we remain the same HMFC, we can deal with the debts and cut costs to make us financially viable and at worst play next season in Division One if not the SPL but at least we are spared the Sevco solution.

    Worst case: We are liquidated and have to start again from scratch, possibly without a stadium and have to join SFL 3rd Division or heaven forbid the East of Scotland League until we can sort ourselves out and get back in the Scottish Leagues.

    If I was a betting man I’d say our chances are 1) 45% 2) 45% 3) 10%

  22. Not The Huddle Malcontent says:

    a small part of me hopes that Romanov goes down the ADMIN route, puts forward a CVA which he can force through (holding more than 75% of the total debt) he agrees to 1p in the £ deal which stiffs a great number of creditors and hearts carry on with a basic 17 point deduction, SPL place in tact, squad in tact etc

    for no other reason than it would pi55 off the bears and have them screaming about an anti rangers agenda.

    Frankly, i’m sick of their nonsense and anything that upsets them is fine by me these days.

    Sooner green takes their money and buggers off with it the better as far as I now care.

  23. arabest1 says:

    It would be a nice gesture of Campbell O donated some cash to the Hearts cause…..say the equivalent of a ‘good night out’……..he won’t miss it.

  24. spurtle says:

    Charlie Brown: as m8dreamer said earlier:

    “The last thing that any Hearts supporter should do at this present time, is to part with any money towards the Share Issue, as it can only be a matter of time before the club goes into Administration or Liquidation.

    Any money that they wish to invest should be put into a Hearts Supporters Trust fund, that can be utilised to purchase what assets of the club they can afford, to ensure that the club has a future, irrespective of which division or ground that they would be playing in.”

    Any money you give to the Club as it now stands, is effectively a poured into a black hole. The Hearts support screwed up before by clinging onto Tynecastle when you should have cleared your debts, and accepted a move to Murrayfield… don’t make the same mistake again: this time there will be no fantasy sugar daddy to “rescue” you.

  25. arabest1 says:

    should read ‘if’, oh for an edit button!

  26. Agrajag says:

    nowoldandgrumpy says:
    Thursday, November 8, 2012 at 22:59

    Does anyone have any information re the FTT ruling. Should it not be out by now?

    =============================

    My guess, and it is only that, is that if the tribunal has ruled and the parties have been informed then there may be privacy issues. As we know the hearing was heard in private, which is taken to have probably have been because of personal safety, public order, release of confidential information or a mixture of these.

    However there would be little point in doing that if the ruling itself negated everything and released the information which people were trying to keep private. I think there is a distinct possibility that one or more party may be trying to have the public release blocked, or if not then more heavily redacted.

    Like I said, just a possibility, no special knowledge or inside information.

  27. smugas says:

    Charlie Brown says:
    Friday, November 9, 2012 at 11:06

    Finally, some sense on the matter. For the life of me I cannot see where the MSM get the div 3 option from apart from “well thats what happened to the the Rangers.” Either Hearts go into admin (can’t see them staving it off completely) Romanov takes the deeds in return for writing off his debt and HMFC as was continues with a points deduction to fight relegation and pay rent OR liquidation occurs in which case Romanov takes the deeds with the full intention to develop it in which case where they’re going to be playing is surely more important than which league they would be in (albeit Doncaster/Regan have already settled that by recent precedent).

    On that basis I would agree with your odds – 90% that hearts stay where they are, 10% that they’re stranded and homeless. Can’t see where emergency reconstruction fits into any of this tbh.

  28. Charlie Brown says:

    spurtle says:
    Friday, November 9, 2012 at 11:28

    Spurtle with all due respects we have been aware of these issues hanging over us for a long time and what our options are, we also know the relative strength of all the parties involved ie Romanov/UBIG, HMRC and the fans and how much we can raise and can’t raise etc.

    I think we all know and debate what we should do and every individual will make their own decision and contribution. Most want to seem to try to save the club and then if we later have to try to do that all over again then that is what we will do as well.

    What would you do if it was your club? We also know their will be no sugar daddy to rescue us this time so we are on our own but we still generate bigger attendances and more money than every club in Scotland outside Celtic and The Rangers so whatever happens the people of Edinburgh still want Hearts to exist so we will even though it’s going to be bloody hard work and painful getting there. 🙂

  29. tcup2012 says:

    No wonder CG is supporting the buy rangers scheme 😉
    His share issue £1-£1:50 a share
    Buy rangers scheme £125 A share
    😉 Correct me if im wrong But did chuckles not promise to put a fans representative on the board when he took over ???
    And now the rangers trust want to pay for this PRIVILEGE ??

  30. Charlie Brown says:

    Oh and I don’t know if any of you guys follow the Hearts forum but it’s been quite fun debating with a blue-nose interloper called A.McCoist365 who has been making lots of posts actively endorsing the newco solution and why it shouldn’t be feared and is a seamless way to purge the club of debts and baddies and how and why they really are THE SAME CLUB honestly because Campbell & Longmuir & Ballantyne have said so. 🙂

  31. Charlie Brown says:

    Hasn’t Sandy Jardine just become one of the biggest roasters in Scottish fitba. Have completely lost any respect i had for man (mostly down to him as a player). What a bitter & hateful individual he has become. I feel sorry for him.

  32. madbhoy24941 says:

    I was talking to a Rangers supporter yesterday evening about the whole “Newco/Oldco” thing, he put forward some interesting arguments devoid of partisan emotion (this part being important to have any reasonable debate on the subject). Of course he knows me and understands my background so no chance of either of us playing the bigot card so we generally have good discussions about this and other matters relating to Scottish football.

    After the discussion I can now say for the first time since this affair came to my attention, I finally get it, I cannot say the same for him. He is a reasonable guy who is not weighed down by the ignorant baggage associated with many others. Like me, he has no interest in Ireland, Religion or Politics. He does however (like me) value history.

    So why is history that important in a footballing sense? Simple, football takes over your whole life, at home, in the workplace, socializing with friends or strangers. So when things are not going well on the pitch we always take solace in the glories of the past, 1967 being a very good example. It’s a fundamental bragging right of the average football fan. If I had a pound for every time I used the European Cup win, 9 in a row, 10 men won the league, Whitewash etc… to shut up a friend or colleague then I might not need to ask my wife for lunch money as often as I seem to do now.

    Where am I going with this? I wish I knew myself!

    Well…He actually believes that the history was bought, that it followed the team (I used team instead of club) to the new club (I use that instead of company). He believes in his mind that he is following the same team and in my opinion he is 100% correct. It is called Rangers, it plays at Ibrox, it has the same strip and most of the previous players and in effect follows the same ethos from before. If he believes that then fine.

    No, sorry, I cannot leave it at that so…..

    ME: You cannot buy history, it is earned not given.
    HIM: The history is the brand and what that brand earned, he bought the brand and with that comes the history.
    ME: So you are saying that the history was indeed bought and the new team owns that?
    HIM: Yes of course, they bought the trade mark, the brand and along with that, the history. The clubs live on, the team is still there.
    ME: Ok, let’s say he bought only Ibrox, Murray Park, the team etc… Everything but the history, let’s say a second buyer bought that and started a brand new team playing at a rented Hamden Park or other venue. And let’s say that buyer was representing prominent Rangers men (fans) with Walter Smith as coach. Which team would you say has the right to boast about the past and assume the history of Rangers?
    HIM: Walter’s team, based on the argument I just put forward.
    ME: Even though another team plays at Ibrox in blue and calls themselves Rangers with most of the players from the old club?
    HIM: Yes, the team I follow is the one that has won over 50 major titles and has the Rangers crest on the shirt.
    ME: Ok, I can accept that. So let’s say the buyer of the brand and history is not a Rangers man and does not have Walter Smith as he joined up with Green’s team over at Ibrox. Oh, and he wants to call the new team Glasgow United (The name Rangers is already taken), who has the right to boast of 50+ major titles?

    Cue a pin dropping moment… a cold wind passes through the room and the man in the corner stops playing the piano…a small dog with his tail between his
    hind legs, crawls slowly towards the exit…

  33. paulmac2 says:

    nowoldandgrumpy says:
    Friday, November 9, 2012 at 08:07

    Jabba wants an emergency reconstruction.

    http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/if-hearts-go-down-watch-other-clubs-1424368#.UJxEwXjjHpM.twitter

    “They are swaying on the edge of oblivion but there are at least two other clubs only one step, one unexpected bill, behind them.

    Despite the bravado and bombast of some fans and commentators who stupidly, and crassly, responded to the troubles of Rangers with glee rather than dismay and alarm, Scottish football is not booming. The exact opposite is the truth”
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    “Rather than dismay and alarm?”

    We the internet Bampots have been telling you about David Murray and Rangers (for the last 8 years at least) Hugh Adam told you in 2002 what faced Rangers…what did you and your paper do? You made every effort to discredit and dismantle any attempt by any individual or group to expose the financial armageddon Murray and Rangers faced…

    Let us make this abundantly clear Mr. Traynor…YOU are partly responsible for the shambolic mess Rangers (now liquidated) found themselves in…It was YOU and your paper who shamelessly followed the party line as instructed by David Murray regarding what you could and could not tell their fans…It was YOU and your paper who chose to ignore the TAX bomb sitting in Ibrox…It was YOU and your paper who encouraged and allowed Craig Whyte the freedom of Ibrox to steal more tax…and it is YOU and your paper who continue to print the PR needs of DM..and Charlie today…and it is YOU and your paper who appear to be getting your self into a frothy lather at the prospect of other Scottish clubs having financial problems…which has thrown up an old Ibrox PR opportunity…and you are fronting as you always do..

    It was YOU who aggressively tried to discredit Chic Young when he confirmed the nod of the head by Mr. Johnston…why did you see fit to do that Mr. Traynor..when 6 other highly respected journalists concured with Mr. Young..
    It’s just a pity Mr. Traynor that you didn’t have the guts or enthusiasm to expose Rangers and David Murray 3-4 years ago…then again how could you…you were under instruction from David…

    If clubs are unable to pay their bills as they fall due then they may need to go to the wall in the same way Rangers Football club were killed off.

    It doesn’t mean Sottish football will die…it simply means those who have been fiscally iresponsible will have to leave the game or run their clubs correctly..

    You are a useless article of a human being..so gie us awe peace ya PHUD!

  34. broadswordcallingdannybhoy says:

    No matter the result of Hearts current predicament, the MSM nomarks will use it as a shoehorn for their wet dream of The Loving Cup’s return to it’s reightful place at the sumit of Scottish Soccerball.

    No doubt some pretty powerful folks will be working feverishly behind the scenes to ensure that it happens: Conflicted Ogilvie, Donkey, Raygun, Chuckles, Jabba, Sandy Cartoon, MPs, MSPs etc etc.

    But it will be left to the most powerful person in Scottish football to determine how it’ll all play out.
    If you’re not aware who this person is,,,,,, go get your season ticket and hold it up to a mirror, that ugly mug you see staring back at you, there’s nobody more powerful, remember what you did in the summer!!

  35. spurtle says:

    Charlie Brown says:
    Friday, November 9, 2012 at 11:45

    “What would you do if it was your club?”

    My club is Dundee – we have been through this twice already! There IS life beyond administration, as other clubs can also attest. We no longer own Dens Park, but we still play there (at least, we play when Hearts are visiting!). And these days nobody will lend us enough money to get into further trouble! I imagine – and hope for – a similar outcome for Hearts.

    If I were a Hearts supporter, I would want to see a Supporters trust in place, as you suggest, and donate to that: once the club is in administration (I don’t see Romanov allowing it to go straight to liquidation…), then you can use your funds for re-establishing your club on a solid footing, with supporter ownership.

    Are Hearts supporters wealthy enough to save your club twice over?

    Lets say you raise enough now to stave off HMRC and keep raising money to keep going to the end of the season… where are you then? Still deeply insolvent and in financial crisis. Unless UBIG accept a CVA, I don’t see any way out of this for Hearts.

  36. Charlie Brown says:

    spurtle says:
    Friday, November 9, 2012 at 12:06

    Spurtle don’t take this the wrong way but avoiding administration now as opposed to 5 or 6 months time and the FTT (Hearts Tax Case) was lost might just about see us able to amass enough points to stave off being relegated although I suspect some form of league reconstruction and expanded top flight will probably save all SPL clubs this season.

    What we have to ensure is we don’t get wound up next week and that is why people are buying tickets for the next 3 home games and those who are buying shares are doing that as well.

    We know we’ve got a huge fight on our hands to survive the season intact and get through the tax case which could be as much as £4M depending on what interest and penalties are added should the tax case be lost, I think that would certainly mean administration.

    We all know we are not going to see our money again but the club will live on.

    We will probably still have to buy back the club and/or the stadium in future as well so we face an arduous road ahead, but we’re doing our best and we’re actively trying to get this tax bill paid unlike some other clubs/holding-co’s we could mention. 🙂

    Best of luck for the season ahead, I quite like away games at Dundee & Dens Park (apart from the obvious one ;))

  37. Agrajag says:

    On re-structuring.

    Why would New Rangers be in the top division if it happened.

    Surely if the leagues were restructured then clubs would be placed in order of where they were in the last season. New Rangers are currently placed 33rd of 42 teams. Even if they win the third division of the SFL that is the highest they can be placed overall.

    In a three league system, 14 teams each, that would place them in the lowest of the three.

    How could anyone justify placing teams in leagues in any way other than on merit from the previous system.

    I don’t really see how restructuring helps them. Unless it is the SPL which re-structures, expands itself into 2 leagues, and gets the additional teams by invitation. The current SPL clubs would have to vote on doing that surely. However Mr Green has already said, more than once, that they will not join the SPL.

  38. Not The Huddle Malcontent says:

    can anyone explain to me why it is reasonable that HMRC will pursue HMFC for £450k unpaid PAYE and NI with a liquidation order, yet did NOTHING to RFC who ran up £15M in unpaid PAYE/NI?

    HMRC did not issue them a winding up order and it was indeed RFC themselves who put them into admin.

    As a taxpayer, I want to know why RFC were not issued with a winding up order when they hit £450k in arrears.

    (i am not for a moment suggesting they shouldn’t be going after Hearts – but why the double standard?)

  39. Charlie Brown says:

    Here is McCoist’s latest thought from Jambos Kickback justed posted minutes ago.
    ==============================================

    What I’m reading on here is a really sad indictment of the anti-Rangers brain-washing that’s accompanied the whole saga at Rangers.

    Let’s divorce it from Scottish football, and look elsewhere… England.

    Leeds Oldco was liquidated in 2007. Can you imagine Leeds fans saying “nah, not supporting them, it’s a newco, not the same club.” Not a chance.
    Charlton Oldco was liquidated back in the 80s. Can you imagine their fans saying “nah, not supporting them, it’s a newco, not the same club.”
    Middlesbrough as well. Luton. None of them have this warped outlook that’s merely a product of anti-Rangers feeling.

    Seeing comments where fans say they would NOT support a team:
    – called Heart of Midlothian FC
    – wearing Hearts jerseys
    – adorned by the Hearts badge
    – playing at Tynecastle
    – followed by Hearts fans..

    Why? Because it’s a newly registered company.

    Unbelievable.

  40. Agrajag says:

    In considering the Hearts position you have to think of the one person being two again.

    In this case Mr Romanov, he is the major shareholder (owner) and major lender (creditor).

    So if he does decide to go down the administration / CVA route then as a creditor he can push the CVA through and purge the club of debt. As someone has pointed out yes he will lose most of his own money (but that was really lost anyway). His problem might be that his bank actually needs that debt as an asset (albeit one it never expects to actually get.

    Once that is done he is still the main shareholder, though no longer a creditor. he still owns the club, the stadium, players registrations etc.

    The problem is, can he find his own Duff and Phelps to run the administration as he (the shareholder) wants and not do anything daft like sell the stadium, or the full squad or whatever. Short answer, yes. If the creditors (Mr Romanov) are happy for it to be dealt with a certain way, and the shareholder (Mr Romanov) agree then the administrator will probably go that way.

    Bottom line, mr Romanov will decide if he wants Hearts to survive long term. Unless of course the fans come up with the money and he doesn’t even have to go down that route. this would men he could keep his club (shareholder) and his debt (creditor).

  41. Brenda says:

    How quaint something concerning pretendgers being delayed!!! You couldn’t make it up 🙂 seriously hope the injured guy gets well soon ………. Does he not have an understudy?

  42. ordinaryfan says:

    Did anyone hear Cosgrove mention to Jabba within the last couple of weeks on air that Ibrox could become a casino? Hearts could end up playing at Murrayfield, Tynecastle may well have been earmarked for re-development, casino, sports centre, as far back as 2003/2004. As could Ibrox. Corsica couldn’t put his finger on the money cleansing side of things, He thought maybe it was Dave King as he was the only one involved at RFC who had the level of wealth, he was looking in the wrong place, it is all to do with Las Vegas Sands, Las Vegas Sands intened on building a Super Casino in Europe, Madrid being the now chosen place, they need multiple laundries spread out across Europe. Lithuania, Scotland and England the most likely. Even good old Banstead in Surrey looks to be in their sights for a new Casino-Leisure Centre. I know how outlandish this all sounds. However I would like to hear RTC and Barcabhoy’s opinion on this, I doubt they will deny this is all correct. The missing link was Las Vegas Sands, I stumbled across it and all roads lead there. Believe it or not guys.

  43. Brenda says:

    Cause let’s be honest it is a bit of a pantomime 🙂

  44. Charlie Brown says:

    For the record I argued with McCoist that I would support a “Hearts” newco but that would be my least preferred option and really it wouldn’t be HMFC it would be a new club ie HMFC-Lite (minus the 138 years history). 90% of people polled posted broadly similar opinions much to McCoists chagrin. He actually wants Hearts to newco -justifying his own clubs actions me-thinks?

  45. Agrajag says:

    Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
    Friday, November 9, 2012 at 12:21

    can anyone explain to me why it is reasonable that HMRC will pursue HMFC for £450k unpaid PAYE and NI with a liquidation order, yet did NOTHING to RFC who ran up £15M in unpaid PAYE/NI?

    =======================

    Do you know how historic the Hearts £450k debt is.

    Have you factored in the previous 3 winding up orders in less than a year.

    Do you know what stage the negotiations between HMRC and Rangers were at when Mr Whyte publicly announced that he would be placing the club into administration.

    You really need to know these things, and more, before comparing the two.

  46. Charlie Brown says:

    HMRC push Hearts because ultimately they get paid in the end, they can only act within their rules so there is nothing untoward in their actions indeed they have and are doing the same to other clubs. But Hearts, Falkirk etc pay their taxes albeit late unlike some other club/holding-co who are now best described as LATE.

  47. Agrajag says:

    Charlie Brown says:
    Friday, November 9, 2012 at 12:36

    For the record I argued with McCoist that I would support a “Hearts” newco but that would be my least preferred option and really it wouldn’t be HMFC it would be a new club ie HMFC-Lite (minus the 138 years history). 90% of people polled posted broadly similar opinions much to McCoists chagrin. He actually wants Hearts to newco -justifying his own clubs actions me-thinks?

    =================================

    Misery loves company.

    They would love nothing more than another set of fans being in the same position. Even better another set of fans arguing the same case as them.

  48. ordinaryfan says:

    Ralph Topping also up to his neck in it.

  49. spurtle says:

    Charlie Brown says:
    Friday, November 9, 2012 at 12:17

    “we’re actively trying to get this tax bill paid unlike some other clubs/holding-co’s we could mention”

    I can’t imagine which club you are referring to.. 😉

    Hearts will have a lot more good wishes helping them out of their predicament than some other clubs/holding-co’s we could mention….

    Best of luck to all of the maroon persuasion in the trying times ahead.

  50. Gym Trainer says:

    Time for an imaginative solution – merge Hearts, ICBINR and the HMRC to make HMRFC then Hector can play everyone 4 times a season and collect their tax as he does it 🙂

  51. ordinaryfan says:

    Online Gaming Site Ralph Toppings William Hill (Yes connected to Las Vegas Sands), says:

    Obviously William Hill would love to see of the Scottish side go all the way to a place (if not the top) in the 2014 World Cup finals. But one thing it is going to be, is a fascinating journey.
    Campbell Ogilvie, who is President of the Scottish Football Association is in turn delighted to have Will Hill as their official sponsor – heck they need all the help they can get – but the brand has already showed robust commitment to Scottish football, so this is not a new in-road for them. The online gambling company seriously are one of the biggest Scottish football supporters. This new sponsorship merely cements their position as such even more.

  52. Good Afternoon.

    There are more than a few interesting points raised in Stewart Cosgrove’s opener, which becomes all the more significant following the recent events at Hearts.

    If I can start with that situation, I would just like to say that I have no desire to see Heart of Midlothian or any other football club go to the wall. Further, despite all sorts of strange rhetoric over the years, I think it is widely accepted that Vladimir Romanov has put a fair degree of his own money– or could that be his bank’s money– into Hearts and under no circumstances could he continue to do that indefinitely.

    However, beyond that point, it must surely be the case that someone somewhere in the Scottish Sports Journalism world could in fact have seen that the Hearts writing was on the wall– in exactly the same way that the demise of Rangers Football Club was an inevitability given that club’s financial history. Further, there is no doubt that Mr Romanov and his management and financial team must have known for some time that the financial model at Hearts was not sustainable.

    In that sense, Mr Romanov is culpable– and should have cut the cloth accordingly long before now.

    When HMRC serve a winding up petition, it only does so after it has already taken a series of steps by way of warning letter and prior demands. This correspondence puts the debtor on notice that HMRC are about to weld the big stick and put you out of business if you do not pay.

    Of course, HMRC do not really want to put anyone out of business, but of course they cannot afford to let a business continue to trade and amass ever greater arrears of PAYE, VAT and other taxes. At that point HMRC must act— and by act I mean take all steps possible to collect the tax that is due. Only when those attempts fail do they seek to apply the ultimate sanction of liquidation.

    Even then, when HMRC say they will not grant any more time to pay or reach a deal, the debtor can go to the court and ask for the petition to be continued to allow them time to settle. This can usually be for up to 42 days, during which time both parties continue to talk and liaise— normally.

    Further, in this procedure HMRC can be true to their word in that they can withold their consent to any continuation, yet at the same time they can shrug their shoulders and technically not object to such a motion leaving it to the court to decide. Such a course of action is different to consenting— in legal speak at least.

    So all is not doomed for Hearts– there is a way forward— but it means a major rethink going forward.

    That rethink needs to take place no matter what happens with Hearts because the Scottish Football model is bust– and has been bust as bust can be for some time.

    David Murray’s arrival at Rangers and his seeming ability to buy a new Million pound player every six weeks at the start of his tenure has slewed Scottish Football totally ever since.

    As many will know, I despise the phrase “Diddy teams” whilst at the same time acknowledging the right of the supporters of various clubs to label themselves with that badge. However, it was in the shadow of the Murray Ibrox miracle that many of those smaller clubs decided to go down the path of perennial spending on wages and players in a forlorn attempt to hang on to the Rangers coat tails— and to be fair, to the coat tails of Celtic in the Martin O’Neill era!

    Given the turnover of many clubs that was always going to be impossible. Just as Murray’s financial model was never going to work for Rangers– so it was never going to work for Scottish Football.

    Whatsmore, I am convinced that there was a clear conflict of interest in the Murray/Rangers/HBOS/ football axis. HBOS– previously Bank of Scotland–had invested so much money into Rangers and /or MIH that it would be impossible for the bank to have absolutely no regard for the trading conditions under which their largest footballing debtors operated. Given that the same bank funded nearly all other clubs and at one point sponsored the league, they were in a unique position to gauge the monetary trends in Scottish Football and gain access to all sorts of footballing financial information.

    I still question whether some clubs were financed only so far whilst ensuring that the biggest debtor could maximise revenues and returns for the bank.

    Certainly there have been some odd financial transactions, and a strange number of players who came to Ibrox from other Scottish teams who played very few games for Rangers. These are players who strengthened the league opposition when playing against Rangers, but who obviously never kicked a ball against Rangers whilst earning a wage from them.

    Yet no one in Scottish Football Journalism said anything against Murray other than the odd word from perhaps Graham Spiers from time to time. Yet each day we are bombarded with the deatils of the Dax, the FTSE and the Dow Jones. Financial journalists fill the pages of the Sunday supplements yet none chose to look at the football finances– and certainly not those of David Murray– in any meaningful detail.

    The sports guys cry that they are not financial journalists and the financial’s don’t cover sports– despite sport and finance being inextricably linked in all sorts of ways. Who would have thunk it?

    Stuart Cosgrove’s depiction of journalists taunting one another over who did and who did not get to dine with Murray is both comedic and tragic. Pathetic is another word that comes to mind. Did Murray only pour claret for sports writers, or were there financial guys on the guest list too?

    And stop and think on this. Dinner was in Jersey!! Jersey– eh now what would David Murray be doing taking journalists to Jersey for? What is Jersey famous for? Why would a supposedly very rich Scottish businessman have an interest in Jersey– why not Arran or Milport or Benbecula?

    Many years ago, I was invited to dinner in the Old East India club in St James’ Square London. My host was a publisher who revealed that he banked at the same bank as British Airways. He ventured that this particular branch looked after only 35 accounts with BA being the biggest. It did not take a maths degree to figure out that if my host was 35th on the list he was still a very VERY wealthy man.

    In the course of dinner he explained that each year he took his board for Christmas Lunch or dinner to Jersey. They often spent some time at Jersey Pearl where tax free discounted jewellery could be picked up for loved ones at a huge discount. Of course other such tax free benefits were also available during the visit!! However, my host also stated categorically that ” These smaller islands off the coast of mainland Great Britain were not just for visiting– they were for deposits and withdrawals– at the most beneficial rate and with the maximum of discretion!”.

    Now did none of the succulent lamb brigade not stop and consider exactly WHY David Murray would take them to such a place and question what he was doing there? When Rangers signed all sorts of big names yet released successive accounts in the naughties showing huge losses but proclaiming ever increasing sales in Merchandising, Season Books and so on– did no one question just what in God’s earth was keeping Rangers FC going financially and what there would be to do…… In Jersey?

    No. In just the same way that near all and sundry predicted that Rangers PLC would enter into and exit out of Administration in around 4 weeks under Mad Craig Whyte, the journo’s swallowed the lamb and the financial baloney from the Murray camp– hook line and Jersey sinker!!!

    It was this inability to question, this inability to see the inevitable that was ARMAGEDDON.

    The Bank of Scotland started to run into trouble in 2006. Senior figures were already resigning hinting at big problems. Guys like Ian Fraser were already hinting at financial troubles in the banks– and eh– did anyone stop and ask exactly how someone got a nickname like “Fred the SHRED”?

    Scottish Football has got to adapt. Mr Brown at St Johnstone may be too conservative, but to be fair his dad did not just splash the cash to follow the Rangers model or the Hearts model and good on him I say. Football is a social experience where originally Working class men gathered to enjoy time together and follow a team. It is not or should not be the domain for financial spivery, off shore accounting, financial advisers and mysterious press practices and gurus.

    This is football– its about skill, blood, snotters, pies and bovril– even the corporate seats at Celtic Park still have pies and Bovril!!!

    Of course it is different today– families women, boys and girlfriends all participate, play and support. However no one is served by fawning coverage of football people, football teams and football finances. All teams will have ups and downs and with the internet so readily available the public will be able to reach their own conclusions as to what has worked and what has failed—— because it will be the public who in the main can put the information out there especially if the press journalists won’t.

    Dr Jim Hamill and I were at a recent discussion on the RTC blog and the winning of the Orwell Prize. The nature of the blog and the effect of the internet bampots were under discussion.

    For me, the main benefit of the RTC blog was the sudden establishment of an on line working group who brought all sorts of talents to the one forum. This expertise was absolutely superb at unearthing, examining, analysing and explaining all sorts of Company Documents, Accounts, Company and Personal Profiles, Transactions between related and officially unrelated parties and so on. Many were Celtic fans– however many were not and there were a good number of well informed Rangers fans who brought very good analysis of what had happened at their club together with supporting information and comment.

    It very quickly established that the pre agreed stories and by lines hinted at by Stewart Cosgrove were neither accurate nor necessarily even properly researched– if researched at all.

    Now, to be plain, none of the contributors were to my knowledge paid journalists. They did not work to deadlines or within policies sent down from the newspaper masters on high. They did not depend on this line of enquiry for a living or a career– all of which is very different to the world of the day to day press man in any sector.

    Yet Internet Bampottery showed that there was and still is a huge readership out there. However it is a readership that is in many respects intelligent and able to gather its own sources and reach its own conclusions. Sports journalists gathering in huddles to determine what they will and what they will not allow the public to read is a practice that belongs with the late Arthur Negus on the antiques Roadshow.

    Then again, if you were one of those who went to Jersey for your dinner just to ensure that you were towing the Murray line, would only print what you were told and would never question whatever spin Mr Murray wanted delivering then perhaps you were selling your journalistic soul when you started jigging about the office and taunting others who were not invited?

    Perhaps under those circumstances , those whose journalistic soul could be purchased with lamb, claret and the odd jersey pearl were more suited to one of the late Arthur’s other shows.

    It was called Going for a song!

  53. ordinaryfan says:

    BRTH: Superb post as ever.
    Have you had a look at the Las Vegas Sands connection? I would greatly appreciate your opinion.

  54. rab says:

    As soon as we ( the fans ) scuppered the plan to have sevco in the SPL ( then div1 ) it was obvious that this was unacceptable to sevco, its fans, the governing bodies and the media. Ever since then we have had to put up with the afore mentioned whinging, moaning and squealing that we would pay the price, we needed sevco, the game would die, listen to their unadulterated joy at every manufactured propaganda piece regarding finances or attendance figures.

    The truth is that sevco are struggling badly with their new found irrelevance and must return to the higher reaches of the game or they will go under.

    Too bad.

    Why do these muppets and puppets not realise that the fans have spoken, the message was clear, no reconstruction that sees sevco elevated will be supported. Get it through your thick heads, the fans have the power to make or break our own clubs and we will use this power again if we are rail roaded into some filthy deal to accomodate the most corrupt among us.

    No

    No

    No

    No

    No

    Not happening.

    Never.

    ( totally sickened by the recent revelations of cover ups in institutions that proves that once you give those with power carte blanche to escape punishment, they escalate their corruption and grow stronger )

  55. Charlie Brown says:

    Agrajag says:
    Friday, November 9, 2012 at 12:53
    0 0 Rate This
    Charlie Brown says:
    Friday, November 9, 2012 at 12:36

    For the record I argued with McCoist that I would support a “Hearts” newco but that would be my least preferred option and really it wouldn’t be HMFC it would be a new club ie HMFC-Lite (minus the 138 years history). 90% of people polled posted broadly similar opinions much to McCoists chagrin. He actually wants Hearts to newco -justifying his own clubs actions me-thinks?

    =================================

    Misery loves company.

    They would love nothing more than another set of fans being in the same position. Even better another set of fans arguing the same case as them.
    ===========================================================================

    Aye except that much to his upset very few of us are in agreement with him. Spectacularly also wants to avoid any discussion of Ogilvie & G.Smith’s roles as office bearers of the SFA and McClelland & Bains similar roles at the SPL. These guys are totally complicit yet meant to be upholding the rules in fairness to all clubs.

    I’ve suggested that such corruption should see a club be punished with a time spent out of football and if they really are the same club as he’s given numerous examples of why they are including agreeing to punishments then that should be applied to Charles Green club?

    You won’t be surprised that he completely blanked that line of questioning and has reverted to banging the newco solution drum.

    Quite bizarre that a fan of another club would make 15 repetitive posts on a thread on which only 95 have been made thus far – a large percentage his. 🙂

  56. wottpi says:

    Like somone said the other day I too should have stuck in harder at the RTC school of Insolvency.

    Is it not the case that Vlad is pretty much going to get Hee Haw for Hearts in relation to the £20m plus debt regardless of what happens?
    He hasn’t taken steps to reign in the spending over the years and all he really has as assets are the players and the stadium.
    If Hearts can hold on until Xmas then have a fire sale and clear out the high earners, give the proceeds of the sale to the taxman and go with a squad of youngsters.
    That then leaves the stadium.
    Is it better to sell it off or hold onto it and charge rent until property/land prices improve and the club can make alternative arrangements?
    Is it coming down to what kind of legacy does the man want to leave?

  57. monsieurbunny says:

    bl00tered says:
    Friday, November 9, 2012 at 08:19
    See Sandy Jardine’s threat to remove himself from the SFA Hall fo Fame….

    What am I missing here, or has Sandy laid claim to Danny Mc.Grain’s history?
    —————————————————————————————

    Well I guess all these times McGrain played at right-back for Scotland belong to him and McGrain only deserves the ones he played at left-back?

    🙂

  58. essexbeancounter says:

    Agrajag says:

    Friday, November 9, 2012 at 12:53

    Misery loves company.

    They would love nothing more than another set of fans being in the same position. Even better another set of fans arguing the same case as them.
    ====================================================================

    Agrajag…”misery loves company”…nice one…may I use it on the Essex dinner party/pub circuit…or will you be claiming copyright…?

  59. ordinaryfan says:
    Friday, November 9, 2012 at 13:15 (Edit)
    0 0 Rate This
    BRTH: Superb post as ever.
    Have you had a look at the Las Vegas Sands connection? I would greatly appreciate your opinion.

    ————————————————————————————————————————

    Not aware of the Sands connection– that must have passed me by! All ears though!

  60. tombrann says:

    Are the MSM et al being opportunistic in seizing the Hearts situation and attempting to use it as an excuse to press for reconstruction that could favour their old favourites from Govan? It is surely simplistic to claim that both of these clubs find themselves in the same boat (without a paddle). The circumstances, whilst not dissimilar are definitely not the same. Furthermore, Hearts problems are entirely unconnected to trfc’s absence, unless you believe Mr Traynor.We are hearing yet again that the punishment meted out to Hearts must be the same as that endured by trfc. Let’s remind everyone again, trfc have not been punished, they have incurred consequences, brought about by their own actions or rather the actions of the club that came before them.
    Hearts will have whatever sanctions are appropriate to their situation. I have always been an advocate of taking every case on its merits. Things can often be similar but in my experience never the same.

  61. rantinrobin says:

    BRTH

    Sports journalists gathering in huddles to determine what they will and what they will not allow the public to read is a practice that belongs with the late Arthur Negus on the antiques Roadshow.
    ————————————————————————————————————————

    I couldn’t agree more.The imagery served up by Stuart on the notion of fawning Murray allegiance is the essence of the problem in Scottish football journalism.I am optimistic that such lackeydom is on the wane given the challenge of the ‘bampots’.

    The servile wretches have also been challenged significantly by fellow journalists such as M Daly and Alex Thomson and no doubt editors ,who themselves can be accused of ambivalence or indeed laziness in approach, must be having to reconsider their future emphasis and the abilities of their current staff.

    Here is to a brave new world

  62. Agrajag says:

    essexbeancounter says:
    Friday, November 9, 2012 at 13:25

    LOL, I won’t claim copyright on a well known figure of speech, old bean.

  63. bobferris70 says:

    Anyone see the Record’s interview with Peterhead chairman Rodger Morrison today? The heading mentions Morrison saying the Rangers fans’ money “has insured we’ll survive”. Can you guess which words are missing from his quotes in the actual article? He also nails the Hearts situation in one sentence, unlike Jabba.

    Albion Rovers have not met either of the OF in any competition since I think 1981/82. They have somehow managed to struggle on and currently find themselves higher up the ladder than they have been for many a year, and playing bloody good football too as I can testify!

  64. Agrajag says:

    tombrann says:
    Friday, November 9, 2012 at 13:36

    Are the MSM et al being opportunistic in seizing the Hearts situation and attempting to use it as an excuse to press for reconstruction that could favour their old favourites from Govan?

    =============================

    As stated earlier, I don’t see how re-structuring helps new Rangers.

    If it is done on merit then they will be at best 33rd team in Scottish senior football at the end of the season. Even with joining the SPL and SFL then having two top leagues of 16 they wouldn’t get in. They would be in the third tier.

    If it is an expansion of the SPL, and teams getting in by invitation Mr Green has already stated repeatedly that he will not take Rangers into the SPL.

  65. rantinrobin says:

    A nice wee piece in the Boston Herald.Love the Regan quotes!

    dlvr.it/2SLdwz

  66. Humble Pie says:

    The Great Rangers Tax Swindle – A Conspiracy Theory

    Part One – Craig Whyte, The Lone Gunman

    Have you ever noticed that every time a major, headline-making event (e.g. an assassination, a terrorist incident or a corporate collapse) happens, the occurrence is routinely blamed, by the authorities and the mainstream media, on a ‘lone gunman’, a ‘maniacal despot’ or a ‘rogue trader’ (Lee Harvey Oswald, Osama Bin Laden or Nick Leeson for example) despite, in many cases, eye-witness testimony confirming multiple gunmen, inexplicable coincidences or clear evidence of a wider conspiracy? Why do you think that might be ?

    I believe that this is down to the establishment’s fear of inculcating the very concept of ‘conspiracy’ in the minds of a complacent and acquiescent public. However, a conspiracy, by definition, simply means “a secret plan or agreement between two or more people to commit an illegal or subversive act.” In truth conspiracies are extremely commonplace in all walks of life but principally in the fields of politics and finance and especially in the corporate world. (Note Collyer Bristow currently being sued by Rangers liquidators for alleged ‘conspiracy’).

    In my humble opinion, ‘the powers that be’ would rather that the word ‘conspiracy’ be automatically linked in the public mind with the word ‘theory’. Two innocent words, which, when put together, take on altogether more sinister connotations. Conspiracy theorists are generally ridiculed and mocked by the media and, subsequently, the general public as ‘UFO kooks’ and tinfoil-hat wearing ‘nutjobs’ and, to be fair, many probably are.

    However, when even serious and reasoned attempts to question the blatant discrepancies and incongruity in the officially sanctioned view of any event are instinctively met with derisory cries of ‘conspiracy theorist!’ and accusations of trying to undermine ‘the natural order of things’, that tends to give me cause for suspicion. What are they trying to hide?

    It is becoming apparent, to me at least, that the death and rebirth of Rangers does indeed involve a well-constructed and multi-layered conspiracy, engineered at a high level in Scottish corporate, legal, financial, media and (I’m afraid to say) political circles. The main aims of which, as far as I can determine, are:

    to circumvent natural justice by the cover-up of gratuitous greed, corporate corruption, tax evasion and alleged criminal fraud committed by a small number of powerful individuals under the auspices of Rangers FC PLC over previous decades and;
    to ensure the continued survival of a Rangers-brand ‘cash-cow’ in order to further fleece the loyal supporters of the old club and Scottish society in general and;
    to prevent, reduce or deflect the inevitable righteous fury of these ‘duped’ fans against the real perpetrators behind this most grievous treachery against their once-proud institution and;
    to avoid the real potential for ‘civil unrest’ or increased sectarian division in the run up to a vote on independence and;
    to maintain the illusion of ‘good governance’ and protect the overall authority of ‘the system’.

    In this case, I am also of the view that Craig Whyte may have been ‘set up’ to play the part of the Lone Gunman in this plot. His decidedly dubious history and devious demeanour would certainly make him an ideal candidate for the ‘fall guy’ role. He may have agreed, knowingly, to be part of the plan (or, more likely, part of ‘a’ plan within the larger plan) however, the ‘architects of control’ may have considered him no more than a ‘patsy’ brought in to ‘pull the trigger’ and to deflect suspicion from their own illegal behaviour.

    Conspiracies by their very nature need to be both complex and clandestine, with the aim of distancing the real architects of the plot as far as possible from the crime scene and subsequent investigation. In order to minimise the risk of being implicated, it is obviously better to have as few people as possible involved. The rationale being that, if covert collusion between more than one person (i.e. a ‘conspiracy’) is established, any investigation or public enquiry should involve a painstaking interrogation of each the suspects separately. The answers extracted, especially under oath, could then be either corroborated or contradicted against the available evidence, potentially leading to more people being implicated and questioned until, eventually, the bigger picture may be uncovered and the conspiracy exposed.

    Much safer, then, for the conspirators to make certain that the entire plot can be attributed to the actions of one solitary ‘lone nut’, preferably one with a dubious past and dodgy-looking eyes.

  67. Lord Wobbly says:

    angus1983 says:
    Friday, November 9, 2012 at 08:44
    15 0 Rate This
    Lord Wobbly says:
    Friday, November 9, 2012 at 07:56
    And it was thoughtful of them to place an advertisement for a car below the article. I really hope it wasn’t a Honda Civic that was involved in the crash.
    ——
    Wobbly – that’ll be adverts generated by your googling and
    surfing habits.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    I can assure you that I have not googled or surfed for cars of any kind. The vast majority of my internet activity is related to music, news and football. Oh and porn, obviously.