The Dismal Art of Whataboutery

by Stuart Cosgrove for the Scottish Football Monitor

In the early years of the new millennium, ‘The Battle of the Saints’ was a First Division encounter. Both St Mirren and St Johnstone had been relegated and were among the favourites to return to the spiritually suffocating SPL. Winning the First Division title was a mixed blessing. It provided a football moment that old firm fans could only dream of – an open-top bus round. But victory meant you were back in the SPL, a league that had been shaped for the benefit of the two big clubs.

Television revenues were skewed, there were no play-offs, only one team could be relegated and the voting structures would bring shame to a tin-pot dictatorship. It was a league you could never realistically win and so never fully enjoy. I remember being in the ‘Wee Barrel’ a traditional football boozer near St Mirren’s old Love Street stadium. It was soon after the St Johnstone drug scandal.   On 5th January 2001, George O’Boyle and his teammate Kevin Thomas had been sacked following allegations that they had used illegal recreational drugs. They had allegedly been caught taking an “unidentified white powder” at the club’s injured players Christmas Party at That Bar in Perth. The drugs scandal undermined St Johnstone’s much peddled identity as a local family club. A bitter industrial dispute unfolded and widespread dressing-room unrest. The team’s form catastrophically dipped. Inevitably, St Mirren fans were delighted to play host to such a “scandalised” and “drug-addled” club. Football fans relish the misfortune of others with almost satanic glee. So the Buddies cheered sarcastically when any Perth fans went into the Wee Barrel’s less than salubrious pub toilet. They made pantomime sniffing noises interjected with animal impersonations and at times it sounded like a famer’s convention had turned into a massive cocaine bender. I vividly remember that one St Johnstone fan became so enraged that he blurted out the unforgettable phrase ‘Aye but what about Barry Lavety?’ Further back in 1995 the St Mirren striker Lavety had been arrested for using the then ‘designer drug’ ecstasy making him the first footballer of the acid-house generation. In this short, pithy response outside a toilet door in the Wee Barrel, all the gut instincts of football spectatorship came to the surface and all the components of what was later to become known as ‘whataboutery’ were laid bare.

Whataboutery pre-dates the internet but it has been kindled by it. The web has transformed the way we talk and think about football. Suddenly and profoundly new forums for discussing the game quickly followed. Facebook was launched two years later in 2004, Twitter joined the social media firmament in 2006 and by 2012 and Scottish football’s summer of discontent the micro-blogging platform had 500 million active users. The rise of social media invoked an ‘epistemological break’ with previous eras of spectatorship and with other forms of media and communication. For the first time ever, fans had a way of instantly communicating, of answering back and disagreeing with each other in real-time. Whataboutery is a dismal art that can be defined by three often sub-conscious characteristics – a refusal to engage with the question at hand; an attempt to deflect the discussion on to others and a failure to engage with the morality of the subject.

Go on any web forum today and you will find many debates are pock-marked with whataboutery. The financial meltdown of Rangers is the most recent and most virulent example. What about Hearts they owe the taxman? What about Dundee they’ve gone bust twice? What about Leeds, Middlesbrough and Portsmouth? Sadly, the misdemeanours of others is an unstable platform on which to mount a moral defence and celebrating victory in a tax tribunal about complex offshore loan-trusts does not magically airbrush away tax-debt involving VAT and PAYE. Nor does whatboutery explain why already rich footballers should enjoy the moral right to hide behind complex off shore tax schemes, irrespective of their legality.   Every football fan at some time in their life has felt a deep primal urge to defend their club. We are emotionally instinctive creatures and quick to play the martyr. But however passionate you are about football – and I would count myself as ‘combustible’ – being loyal to your club does not permit disloyalty or contempt for the institutions of a fair society.

Not surprisingly, the origins of the term whatboutery can be traced back to the sectarian divisions in Northern Ireland. Last year I met the journalist and blogger, Mick Fealty who is one of the driving forces behind the blog forum Slugger O’Toole, a site that has bravely tried to provide a platform for localism and for non-sectarian political discourse in Northern Ireland. It is often cited as the place where the term whataboutery was invented. Taking its lead from Slugger, the online dictionary wikitionary defines whataboutery as “responding to criticism by accusing one’s opponent of similar or worse faults.” Recently, at the height of rioting in Belfast in the aftermath of Belfast city council’s policy shift on flying the union flag, a major local newspaper the Belfast Telegraph said in a trenchant editorial – “For everyone who cares about democracy; who wants an end to sectarian posing and mind games; an end to mindless thuggery; an end to immature reactions to complicated issues; an end to whataboutery ….” An end to sectarian posing and mind games – how refreshing would that be? The recent case of Anthony Stokes is a case in point. Most fans would concede that Stokes is a fool to have associated himself with the Real IRA and criminal elements within the Dublin republican scene. But some fans – believing they were supporting their club and its Irish origins – are hard-wired to romanticism and a re-hashed history. Nothing that Stokes has done is either romantic or historic – it is grubby and pathetic. Nor is deflection acceptable either. Yes of course Andy Goram has associated with some fairly disagreeable characters but that does not absolve Stokes of responsibility. Celtic manager Neil Lennon has been unambiguous about that. Stokes is on a final warning and rightly so. Whataboutery is the glue of entrenched opinion. It cultivates extremes rather than subtleties, and favours glib comment over deeper dialogue.  That is why TSFM should always be vigilant about the forum slipping into whatabouterty.

It seems almost banal to say it, but you can be a supporter without being a supplicant.   You can be Rangers daft without endorsing morally bereft tax loopholes, you can want Neil Lennon to enjoy a life free from intimidation without defending complicated film investment schemes; you can relish a goal by Garry O’ Connor without admiring his self-defeating lifestyle,  you can be a big Jambo but still expect staff to be paid on time, you can be a Red Ultra without having to urinate on videos of Gazza and  you can soak up the atmosphere in the Dundee Derry, without cushioning its sectarian associations. And, yes I do know that there was once a dairy behind the goal at the Derry End – but when fights erupted in the 1970s, it wasn’t lactic pasteurisation they were fighting about.

Football fans can be emotionally passionate yet hold on to moral values.  We can be vocal without being vacuous. We can be diehard fans without being robotic ideologues for our club.  Many of us have found ourselves tied in knots trying to defend our clubs and in some cases defend the indefensible. The roll-call of whatboutery in Scottish football would shame a mature society. There’s defective flat-screen televisions in Manchester; hearses at Celtic Park; programme notes at Montrose; unidentified white powder; porn peddlers in the 1980s, Joanna Lumley’s love-life, urinal-videos in Aberdeen; Leigh Griffith’s unique contribution to fatherhood; Hugh Dallas’s emails; Maurice Edu’s car and Lee Wallace’s air-rifle. They are surreal and seemingly endless.

As new technologies surround us daily, whataboutery has gone digital and online disputes are now frequently backed up by a stream of phone-footage, rogue tweets, photo-shopped imagery  and spectacularly desperate analogies.  We live in the white-heat of social media where whataboutery goes on ad nauseum and in perpetuity. It is the dismal art of the web and a habit we have to overcome if Scottish football is ever to find a settled democracy. The financial collapse of Rangers has brought us to a cross roads. Unless there is some kind of rapprochement and an ‘appliance of compliance’, then whataboutery will last for many more decades to come.  Whataboutery is a defence mechanism which allows fans and the clubs they support to avoid moral responsibility. But it need not be like that. In February 2007, Scottish football was given a simple lesson in how the game could be run if we could look forward. It was a cold and wet night at Fir Park during a midweek Scottish cup tie. St Johnstone’s Jason Scotland was unexpectedly targeted by a small band of racist Motherwell fans. By most reasonable accounts of the events, a gang of right-wing casuals taunted the player with monkey chants. Season tickets were not valid and many fans were not in their regular seats. But within a few minutes, groups of decent Motherwell fans turned on the racists, shouted them down and alerted the police.

Online there was a brief and half-hearted flurry of whataboutery. Some denied it had happened, others said that Jason Scotland was “playing the race card” and a small vocal minority argued it was Airdrie fans. This is an unfamiliar twist on an age old deflection. Blaming phantom support from elsewhere is quite common in Scottish football, although it is usually the demonology of Chelsea, Millwall or England fans that are cast as the mysterious villains.

Whatever the motives of those that posted their defence of Motherwell, the whataboutery was short-lived and brought to a shuddering halt by a simple, prompt and unambiguous apology. In an official club statement, Chairman John Boyle said: “These people should never show their faces at Fir Park again and they have no place in football,” adding “We are utterly appalled by this behaviour by a small group of people who have tarnished the name of our club. We are writing to Jason Scotland and St Johnstone today to apologise for this disgusting behaviour which is totally alien to all of us.”

Motherwell had scripted a blue-print for change. Rather than deflect attention elsewhere or dispute the minutiae of events, clubs, fans and officials have to become “better at being wrong.”  When there is a clear injustice, evidence of wrong-doing or powerful proof that mistakes have been made, then it is no longer acceptable to hide from the moral consequences. Apologise and pay the price. That applies equally to all of us and there is no hierarchy of importance. No special cases. The SPL may have a history of gifting privileges but common decency does not.

Stuart Cosgrove

Stuart Cosgrove is a St Johnstone fan. He was previously Media Editor of the NME and is now Director of Creative Diversity at Channel 4, where he recently managed coverage of the Paralympics, London 2012. At the weekend he presents the BBC Scotland football show ‘Off the Ball’ with Tam Cowan. This is the second of a trilogy of blogs he has agreed to write for TSFM. The first was about the era of Armageddon. He writes here in a personal capacity.

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About SFM
The Scottish Football Monitor is following the lead of RangersTaxCase in an attempt to hold the Scottish mainstream media to account and to question. If they do not ask the difficult questions, we will.

796 Responses to The Dismal Art of Whataboutery

  1. Flocculent Apoidea says:

    Bawsman, I agree with thrust of your point but it is important to point out that the SFA independent panel is not looking to strip titles, nor to establish simply that dual contracts existed.  They need to establish if all payments to players were not disclosed (something the FTTT has already done).  Various consequences and punishments are available to them.  
    Sorry to sound picky but the media have already allowed the idea of this being a title stripping exercise due to use of EBTs to permeate into public consciousness (not least that of Rangers fans).

  2. neepheid says:
    Saturday, December 22, 2012 at 11:52
    12 0 Rate This

    =====

    The fault here lies entirely with those bodies responsible for the administration of Scottish football ….
    ————-

    On that single point neepheid, I reckon there is broad agreement between TRFC supporters and the substantial mass of other fans. Different reasons, of course, but TRFC fans would probably be happy to see a major clear out at the top too.

    Season of goodwill, so it’s maybe worth finding points of agreement. I saw a random photo of a section of Gers fans yesterday, it was a group of rather young-looking lads with their scarves. No banners, no flags, just young fans, they could have been any of our sons. This is the generation that will carry their team forward. They live in the internet age like the rest of us and have the ability to make their own minds up. With the emphasis more on the failed leadership, as it should be, that could well lessen the feeling of alienation and anger that some blue fans feel. So at the risk of stating the bleedin’ obvious for the umteeth time, it’s now more important than ever that the TSFM (or The Irish Football Prefect as some would have it 🙂 ) is an inclusive forum, a rainbow coalition if you will.

  3. barkinglama says:

    Malcolm Murray no longer a director of Sevco Scotland now a director of RIFC, who’s left on the board of the newest football club in scotland?

  4. bawsman says:

    Flocculent Apoidea says:
    Saturday, December 22, 2012 at 13:21

    Fair enough, I have been guilty of jumping the gun in the past due to a natural tendency of mine to expect the truth will out and justice will be seen to be done.

    II’m content to wait 😉

  5. angus1983 says:

    A nice wee piece on Stuart and Tam’s show today …

    It seems that, in keeping with the Mayan Armageddon prophecy, the world did in fact end yesterday.

    However, God bought up the assets and transferred everything to a new planet, which he’s called “The” Earth. He’s hoping no-one will notice any difference.

    That, and loads of other little digs on the show today – noted by Richard Gordon as “a row of fish-hooks along the studio wall” which he was trying to avoid. 🙂

  6. allyjambo says:

    Senior says:

    Saturday, December 22, 2012 at 13:11

    Ah, the flu! Hope you are washing your hands before you touch your keyboard, don’t want it spreading like a virus in this direction 😉

    Not only do I realise we are ‘long past that point in the game’ I also realise that that point, where the SFA/SPL would listen/take notice of the fans, never ever existed. As a result, however, of our moanings on forums (fora?) such as this there was enough awareness of what was going on for people to be galvanised into contacting their respective clubs and letting their feelings be known and so the shoehorn of TRFC into the SPL was stopped (probably there were many club chairmen and board members unaware, too, without such blogs). It wasn’t the blogs etc that did it, it was the fact they’d supplied important information, then kept the awareness alive until such time as action could be taken. If we stop these circular conversations the forum will just fade away and die, and that will suit the SFA/SPL/Green etc just fine and dandy. At worst we are treding water until such time as someone comes up with something ‘nuclear’, not printed in the MSM, that we can use to force those in power to do the right thing. Not saying, though, that something nuclear will ever come along, but we can live in hope 🙂

  7. john clarke says:

    In the mail half-an-hour ago came a reply from Army Headquarters Secretariat to my letter of 13th November (summarised in my post on here of 13th November at 20.18) to GOC Scotland, which had been passed to Army HHeadquarters.

    It is a nicely balanced reply, in which it is said that GOC (Scotland) and the other Service heads in Scotland share my view that the “format of the half-time event and the conduct of those taking part in it was inappropriate for Remembrance Weekend, and will take steps to ensure that such events are conducted with appropriate solemnity in the future. They believe that the minute’s silence before the match was the correct way to mark the occasion and Army commanders will be directed to restrict future Remembrance events to this type of activity in the future. The focus of Remembrance activities must be on the fallen, not on those who are serving in the Armed Forces today.”

    It goes on to say ( and I paraphrase) that it is important for morale, and for the relationship between the Armed Forces and society, that the public has opportunities to show its appreciation , admiration and recognition of the difficult and dangerous work they undertake on behalf of the nation.

    It makes the point that these days the focus of such opportunities is on Armed Forces Day each year, and the many homecoming and community events held throughout the year.

    These events can, it says, be expected to be more relaxed, but should never “include any sort of sectarian bias, which is completely inappropriate.”

    It says also that the GOC will write to me separately.

    I am perfectly satisfied with that response.

  8. barkinglama says:

    Re Goosy’s ideas on the getting cash from sevconians via the holding company, I would assume that this would require that very little is spent on the football team and as such the attendances will suffer and the whole thing will come to a head very quickly

    Is there any scenario where this whole pantomime actually ends with a fit and healthy sevco playing in the champions league?

    If this was all about asset stripping the balls off a dying club then I don’t think it would have got this far the MSM and the rainjurs men would have been all over it

  9. nawlite says:

    Senior,

    No one is suggesting we should sit on our a**es, but not everyone will buy into the boycott idea. For me, the next opportunity to make people sit up and take notice is the Tannadice match. If RFC* won’t go, we should! In advance, we could be letting clubs; the football authorities; the MSM etc know why this large random group of football supporters is there with banners questionning the decisions/accountability/transparency of the men in power and the rules around the RFC* situation. Would a load of banners in the crowd demanding release of the 5-way agreement have an effect with sufficient publicity? Is anyone up for buying tickets to the match?

  10. ClashCityRockers says:

    allyjambo says:

    Saturday, December 22, 2012 at 13:52
    —————————————————-

    Absolutely aj. Not everyone that works at the SFA is corrupt. There will certainly be individuals who know exactly what is going on and find the corruption morally repugnant. Would any such individual, who has a firm grasp of their moral compass, want to turn whistleblower though. Would they take a monumental risk and expose this 5 way agreement to the public domain of the internet. To do so would incur the wrath of the extremist elements within Ibrox, Charles Green and all other co-conspirators of the agreement. I like to think that some of those in the SFA who retain their moral compass are avid readers of this blog. Who knows, maybe such individuals could pluck up the courage and contribute to the debates and discussions on the TSFM. Stranger things happen.

  11. allyjambo says:

    barkinglama says:

    Saturday, December 22, 2012 at 13:59

    I think this is where the transfer embargo comes into play, Green has the perfect excuse not to spend on the team while keeping the bears firmly behind him and the attendances won’t dwindle all that much. He will, of course, need many more rabble rousing events to keep the ‘victims’ mood going, and in this, I’m sure, the SFA/SPL will help by allowing him to continue with his preposterous claims unabated.

    Could this all end well for The Rangers? I think it can, and probably, though to a lesser extent than their support believe is their right, will. There will come a time when The Rangers are ‘cleaned’ up, and are going to be ‘the club’, whether oldclub or newclub, and then someone, or consortium, very much Rangers minded, will come in and buy them.

  12. wjohnston1 says:

    John Clarke.
    Thank you very much for posting the response you received from Army Headquarters.
    On the evening that this happened at Ibrox I posted my disgust at what I felt was very inappropriate actions on the park at half time by Military Personnel. When last i looked there were over 250 TU’s, which were greatly appreciated. I know that you and others took the matter further by lodging formal complaints with the appropriate military bodies, something I didnt feel capable of doing properly. I am glad that you have received what appears to be an excellent response, showing that the concerns expressed on this blog were accepted by the Military to be justified.
    Thanks for taking the time to write and to post a note of the response.
    Sometimes we Internet bampots get a result!!

  13. wjohnston1 says:
    Saturday, December 22, 2012 at 14:23
    4 0 Rate This

    John Clarke.
    Thank you very much for posting the response you received from Army Headquarters.
    ————

    A thanks from me too.

  14. whullie says:

    john clarke says:
    Saturday, December 22, 2012 at 13:55

    In the mail half-an-hour ago came a reply from Army Headquarters Secretariat to my letter of 13th November (summarised in my post on here of 13th November at 20.18) to GOC Scotland, which had been passed to Army HHeadquarters.
    ————————————————————-

    I too wrote to G.O.C Scotlands ADC. I also recieved a response yesterday. I filed it and my PC created it as a photo file.

    I don’t have the skills to post this yet but it IS in the hands of someone who can.

    From reading the excerpts from your letter JC, I am of the opinion that mine is exactly the same. Verbatim. Whilst the response is heartening, I now feel a little disappointed as it would appear a standard letter was drafted and sent to all complainants. Am I wrong here?

    I hope to have the document posted here, in it’s entirety, soonest.
    ———————————————————————————-

    A second quick point, if I may.

    TRFC have refused their ticket allocation for the Tannadice match but DUFC have stated that away fans are welcome to purchase tickets directly from them.

    To me, this scuppers the brilliant idea (IMO) that fans of other clubs could attend in lieu of TRFC fans.

    But. Even if only a tiny handful of TRFC fans take tickets, this will ensure that no other fans can. The Tayside police cannot allow this.It is TRFC’s match and a small amount of visitors must take priority, even over a couple of thousand others.

    Anything else is potentially a recipe for trouble…………..unfortunately. 😦

  15. ianagain says:

    Allyjambo

    Wheres the best place to send money to Hearts. Is it the share issue or are there alternatives? Im feeling Christmasy.

  16. bill1903 says:

    Superb performance by Sir Stuart Cosgrove on radio Scotland at the moment.

    Ramming the facts down the throats of the listening T’Rangers masses

    Kenny MacIntyre doing a good jabba/chic impersonation though

    Tom English doing fairly well but no idea why pat bonnars on the show

  17. jean7brodie says:

    bogsdollox says:
    Friday, December 21, 2012 at 22:59

    Bogsdollox, I was actually joking! Sorry you find me a waste of any space.

  18. faza2010 says:

    jean7brodie says:

    Bogsdollox, I was actually joking! Sorry you find me a waste of any space.

    ———–

    Jean, you are allowed to joke on here unless I have missed a Stalinist style decree from TSFM.

    Do not apologise.

  19. highlandjaggy says:

    Why do DU not just send the tickets to Ibrox with an invoice.
    If TRFC do not sell them to their supporters then that is their problem not DU,s.

  20. jean7brodie says:

    faza2010 says:
    Saturday, December 22, 2012 at 19:24
    Thanks for your kind comment but I think I’ll miss out on jokes from now on as they obviously bring out the worst in folks!

  21. john clarke says:

    whullie says:
    Saturday, December 22, 2012 at 15:07
    I too wrote to G.O.C Scotlands ADC. I also recieved a response yesterday. … Whilst the response is heartening, I now feel a little disappointed as it would appear a standard letter was drafted and sent to all complainants. …’

    You’re probably right that those of us who may the same complaint would have been sent the same letter.

    But it would not have been a ‘standard’ letter, already on file waiting to be ‘topped-and-tailed’.

    I venture to think that our complaints were unique.

    Some fairly senior people in the three forces had to ask some questions to find out what we were complaining about , decide that we had a legitimate complaint, agree to acknowledge it openly, and promise to take steps to avoid similar situations in the future.

    There would be no pre-prepared standard letter to be fetched from the drawer!

    A bit of thought and quite possibly some three-way to-ing-and-fro-ing would have been required.

    It would be too much, I think, to look for a differently phrased or worded reply to be sent to as many of us as had written.

    (In passing, I have to say again how wonderful is the notion of parliamentary democracy, where people like you and me can write to the heads of the Armed services and take it for granted that we will be courteously and honestly replied to).

  22. highlandjaggy says:
    Saturday, December 22, 2012 at 19:25
    5 0 Rate This
    Why do DU not just send the tickets to Ibrox with an invoice.
    If TRFC do not sell them to their supporters then that is their problem not DU,s.

    ——

    Good idea… especially if they send it with a zero price.. a concession if you like ( and that’s what Chuckles has been doing for the Sevco home games; I like the irony) … and if Sevco then take up any of them, they look like chumps. What’s not to like ?

  23. ClashCityRockers says:

    jean7brodie says:

    Saturday, December 22, 2012 at 18:36

    bogsdollox says:

    Friday, December 21, 2012 at 22:59

    Bogsdollox, I was actually joking! Sorry you find me a waste of any space.
    ————————————————————————————————–

    He must think you’re past your prime 😥

    Ah’ll get ma coat 😳

  24. whullie says:

    john clarke says:
    Saturday, December 22, 2012 at 19:37

    But it would not have been a ‘standard’ letter, already on file waiting to be ‘topped-and-tailed’.
    ———————————————————-

    Hi JC. I didn’t actually mean that there would “one they prepared earlier”. 😀

    Your remarks have dissipated my disappointment somewhat. Mibees I just didn’t think about it in as much detail as I should have.

    In truth. I am an ex serviceman with an in-built distrust of officers.Maybe that explains it.

    However,Thank you again for being less cynical than I.

    Merry Christmas.

    PS I had a quick look but found no info on the signatory, J.A.Rolland. Did you try?

  25. Tommy says:

    john clarke says:
    Saturday, December 22, 2012 at 13:55
    —————————————————
    Re: your reply from Army HQ, I, too, got an identical letter from Andover. As I was far from satisfied with mine, I wrote back saying that I would not accept this template letter which answered none of the specific questions I asked. I pointed out that I had deliberately addressed my complaint to the Secretary of State for Defence as it concerned taxpayers’ money and was therefore a political matter. I requested that the Army Seretariat to forward it to Philip Hammond’s office in Whitehall for action.

    Remembrance Day is simply that – remembering the fallen. It seems to have become a military celebration in recent years, like the Royal tournament, The Royal Albert Hall or the Edinburgh Tattoo. My uncle was killed in WW1. I have toured the battles fields of the Somme and Flanders several times and can appreciate the horrors of war. That is why I object so strongly to such a poinant occasion being hijacked by TRFC for its own ends.

  26. ekt1m says:

    “Your Call” tonight was the first time I have heard the unvarnished truth being put over the airwaves about Charlie Green and his spat with the SPL about being “thrown out” by embittered and bogited club chairmen. Well done to Stuart Cosgrave, Tom English and Pat Bonner, They did’nt miss a trick and laid into him for not accepting that TRFC are a new club and persisting with telling his fan club what they want to hear about being “the only debt free club in the UK”. Perhaps we are now beginning to hear the media asking the questions they should have been asking six months ago.

  27. ekt1m says:
    Saturday, December 22, 2012 at 20:39
    4 0 Rate This
    “Your Call” tonight was the first time I have heard the unvarnished truth…

    ——

    Your Call is now missing Jim Traynor as the orchestrator in chief of misinformation… no coincidence its more truthful ?

  28. jean7brodie says:

    5starsorbehindbars says:
    Saturday, December 22, 2012 at 21:08

    Anybody have a link to Your Call tonight?

  29. justshatered says:

    Still don’t get Tom English maintaining that it is the same club and yet when he is pressed on any detail he calls it ‘minutiae’.

    Dearie me Tom you really must do better than that!!

    The minutiae is what this issue is all about. The minutiae of whether players were registered correctly. The minutiae of whether tax was paid. The minutiae of whether NI was paid. The minutiae of whether the Chief Executive and the SPL board followed their rules. The minutiae of whether the President of the SFA should still be in post. The minutiae of whether the Chief Executive of the SFA followed the rules of registering new clubs and is conflicted himself after simply accepting Ogilvie’s explanation.

    Each little piece of minutiae is a small part of a jigsaw that becomes a large problem for the authorities that govern our sport.

    Finally Tom if they are the same club can I ask why the runners up of the SPL last year are now playing in the third division?

    I mean you, along with the rest of the MSM, should be hammering on the doors of the SFA to demand why this has happened. You can’t have it both ways because either they are a new club and deserve to be where they are or there has been a conspiracy larger than the Kennedy assassination to relegate the runners up of last year’s SPL.

    Oh and if you try to come out with the old ‘holding company’ routine then that still doesn’t wash because if they were the holding company then they would still be in the SPL being just an asset of that ‘holding company’. Either that or the team that won all of those trophies WAS the ‘holding company’.

    The problem with minutiae is that those are the little things that make guys like Ogilvie ‘the great administrator’. It is why most clubs have secretary’s because rules and regulations are quite complicated and need to be adhered to and when clubs fail to fulfil their requirements then they are punished.

    Perhaps we could allow one team in the whole of Scotland to be allowed to dispense with the offside rule when attacking?

    After all its just minutiae!!!!!

    Tom you must do better to either explain your position or start telling the truth.

  30. goosygoosy says:

    Auldheid says:
    Saturday, December 22, 2012 at 09:42

    Would it not make sense, in the interest of protecting themselves and The Rangers supporters for SFA/SFL to require The Rangers to lodge quarterly accounts with them that can be published every 2nd qtr.
    If CG and co have nothing to hide surely they would welcome such an offer of transparency? It would also prove to the authorities that The Rangers were sticking to their 33% wage cap and living within their means.
    ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
    barkinglama says:
    Saturday, December 22, 2012 at 13:59
    Is there any scenario where this whole pantomime actually ends with a fit and healthy sevco playing in the champions league?
    If this was all about asset stripping the balls off a dying club then I don’t think it would have got this far the MSM and the rainjurs men would have been all over it
    ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
    Auldheid, barkinglama
    I respect both your points of view.
    I could be totally wrong.
    Perhaps the SFA & SPL view Green &Co in a much more trustworthy light than Whyte and his cohorts. Perhaps they believe in his master plan. Maybe they agree he will be the first CEO to turn a start-up into a highly profitable company. One which consistently achieves football honours with a salary bill capped at 33% of turnover. Perhaps they accept that although their investment was opportunistic TRFC are now in the hands of shrewd businessmen. People who will do something never before achieved in modern UK football Businessmen who will get their just reward from a rising share price and dividends as they roll out multiple streams of new income .
    Perhaps there are Sevco watchers of great integrity waiting on the side-lines ready to pounce if Green makes a wrong move. People itching for the chance to pull down Green and his gang. If there are they have missed a few opportunities already
    You may well be right
    ………………
    However in my book
    When someone lies a few times he doesn`t get disbelieved for a few months. He is untrustworthy forever. Likewise, when a Spiv demonstrates his Spivery by repeated misdeeds he is a Spiv forever.
    That leaves the people who associate with Spivs. They fall into two categories
    1 They are either victims of a scam
    Or
    2 They are fellow Spivs enlisted in the scam
    As an example
    You might be tempted to view Ticketus as victims of a scam
    However
    If you were the Ticketus Manager responsible for losing £27m of investor funds by buying RFC STs from Whyte
    And
    Your involvement with Whyte was publicised in emails released by the BBC
    Don`t you think your Octopus bosses might be a tad worried at the ruinous effect of your incompetence on their Client base ?
    Worried enough to fire you for gross incompetence?
    Well consider this
    The person managing Ticketus is still working for Octopus despite allegedly losing them £27m in the RFC debacle
    ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
    Alternatively
    Is it more plausible to believe that the real reason this person is still with Octopus is because he didn`t lose £27m at all but is actually working his way through a strategy to recover this investment?
    It all comes down to trust and whether it can be sliced and served up in shades of grey
    I believe it is either black or white. On that basis TRFC are in the hands of amoral Spivs whose only aim is to bleed it dry

  31. Jean7brodie

    Not sure todays your call is “out there” yet; podcasts are regularly updated at the link below, but there will other sources no doubt (to be honest, I’ve tended to keep away from them, as I usually end up shouting at the screen !)

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/scotfoot

  32. angus1983 says:

    This summer, I visited Tyne Cot Cemetery near the village of Passchendaele.

    To stand looking out across the peaceful green fields in the warm sunshine, while hidden speakers in the ground slowly read out the names of the young men who died in those fields is a sobering and thought-provoking experience. To stand in silence on the white memorial where “Tyne Cottage” itself stood, among the rows of immaculate white graves, each surrounded by colourful, living flowers, even more so.

    Last year, I visited the Menin Gate at Ypres and also Lijssenthoek Cemetery, situated where there was a front-line WW1 field hospital. The only sound there was that of local gardeners tending the graves, and the warm breeze in the trees. I pass through Belgium and France every year, and each time I stop at a different cemetery.

    When I go to these places I generally choose a grave, usually that of a Gordon Highlander, and sit and smoke a quiet cigarette with him. In Italy, I did the same for the Austro-Hungarians in their quiet little corner at Redipuglia. (I have enough Hungarian to pass on my thoughts – my son’s other granda died aged 22 on the Eastern Front, fighting for the Germans in midwinter, remembered now only as a name on the village war memorial.)

    My thoughts are my own, but I hope they’re shared with the guy lying silent beneath me, whatever his nationality and whatever side he was on..

    Contrast with the Ibrox display.

  33. campsiejoe says:

    angus1983 @ 22:00

    I have done much the same as you in other war cemeteries, and I can relate to, and whole heartedly agree with your sentiments
    Well said sir

  34. jean7brodie says:

    ClashCityRockers says:
    Saturday, December 22, 2012 at 20:07

    OT
    By Gawd I’m not even near that!!
    As Mark Twain once said:
    Age is an issue of mind over matter. If you don’t mind, it doesn’t matter.

  35. bailemeanach says:

    angus1983 says:
    Saturday, December 22, 2012 at 22:00

    Angus, many thanks. I had followed RTC for it’s last 12 months, and later TSFM since it’s inception. Your post tonight was the catalyst to sign up as I felt I needed to respond. Your well worded comments brought a wee tear to my eye. As perfect a definition of dignity as you will find. Thanks again

  36. paulsatim says:

    Re the response from MOD……..

    From poster tomtomaswell on TSFM says:
    Thursday, December 13, 2012 at 13:12

    Reply from the MOD regarding the Remembrance Day fiasco at Ibrox.

    “The General Officer Commanding Scotland has now had the opportunity to review the events that took place at Ibrox Park with the other Service heads in Scotland. They share your view that the format of the half time event and the conduct of those taking part in it was inappropriate for Remembrance Weekend, and will take steps to ensure that such events are conducted with appropriate solemnity in the future. They believe that the minute’s silence before the match was the correct way to mark the occasion and Army commenders will be directed to restrict future Remembrance events to this type of activity in the future. The focus of Remembrance activities must be on the fallen, not on those who are serving in the Srmed Forces today”

    At least somebody shares our disgust.

  37. troyblain says:

    The major difference between Sevco FC and every other professional team in Scotland is the other teams never ever threaten other clubs or newspapers, or the national team.

    We need the law and governing bodies to bring them into the 21st century rather than operating like Nrthrn ireland in a land before democracy.

  38. bill1903 says:

    Stuart Cosgrove was superb tonight
    MacIntyre was trying to defend his team

  39. goosygoosy says:

    angus1983 says:
    Saturday, December 22, 2012 at 22:00
    This summer, I visited Tyne Cot Cemetery near the village of Passchendaele. …………
    ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
    Brilliant and sobering reminder of what honouring the fallen really means

  40. paulsatim says:

    goosygoosy says:
    Saturday, December 22, 2012 at 23:08

    Spot on GG, and well said Angus!

  41. troyblain says:

    surely cg can take the 22 million and say, thank you very much for investing in my company, soon you can invest into the club.

  42. paulsatim says:

    troyblain says:
    Saturday, December 22, 2012 at 23:30

    “thank you very much for investing in my company, thank you very much, thank you very, very, very very, very, very. very, very……………………..

    much!”

  43. barkinglama says:

    I think through the whole omnishambles if there was any hint that any of the players in the RFC/sevco farce where at the madam and what they were attempting to do was ultimately to the detriment of ra peeepilll, then the plan would not have gone by day one the MSM and “the rainjurs” men would have killed it stone dead.

    With that in mind what would need to happen to have sevco at the top table asap – as far as I can see it would need some people to effectively burn 30M of the queens pounds (tax paid)

    I find the whole thing perplexing

  44. riddrie says:

    jean7brodie says:
    Saturday, December 22, 2012 at 21:12

    Anybody have a link to Your Call tonight?
    ==================================

    Here you go Jean…

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/scotfoot#playepisode1

  45. exiledcelt says:

    CG doing his UN best to defuse the situation – says non TRFC fans will cause trouble and blame the new club, then says he will take all the tickets and sell out – then states he wont talk to SPL clubes………..where to start…………

    It worse than having an attention seeking idiot inthe family……oh hold on!

    http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/sport/4711260/I-predict-a-riot.html

    CHARLES GREEN has warned Dundee United they are risking a RIOT by selling tickets direct to Rangers fans.

    United chairman Stephen Thompson has decided to make briefs available to Gers fans for the Scottish Cup fifth round tie in February.

    But Green who refused an allocation, said: “We’re concerned Dundee United won’t know who they are selling tickets to and how will they know if they are genuine Rangers fans or potential troublemakers?”

    Ibrox chief Green is worried thugs pretending to be Gers supporters could buy tickets direct from Tannadice after United announced their intention to make briefs available for away fans.

    Rangers had asked not to be given an allocation for the tie after fans organised a boycott.

    Green added: “Football needs to be safe and there is no guarantee it will be.

    “It would not need a bright guy to tell you that there has been tension between Rangers and Dundee United for a number of years.

    “We’ve taken a decision to defuse that tension. But the decision to sell tickets to people who may not be Rangers fans is taking it to a high level.

    “I’m disappointed. I spoke to Stewart Regan about it the other day when the SFA asked my reasoning.

    “We have been very clear from day one, because of the fans’ issues with Dundee United we made the decision not to take tickets.

    “And we requested they did not make tickets available to Rangers fans.

    “There are a number of issues. Safety has to be paramount. We are very conscious of safety.

    “I would ask United to think again. The majority of Rangers fans said they did not want to go.

    “There will be a few who do and I can understand that.

    “But it’s foolish to try and bring in a few fans who might not be Rangers supporters — it could be any number of people who turn up with a red, white and blue scarf on.

    “Have I spoken to Dundee United about it yet? I don’t think anyone from the SPL is interested in speaking to me.”

    Green also claimed if United are desperate to sell out Tannadice he will take ALL the tickets and flog them to his own fans.

    He said: “People have said it won’t look good to have a televised game with an empty stadium.

    “Give us all the tickets then. Let’s have no United fans at the game and we’ll fill the stadium.”

    Tannadice chairman Thompson declined to comment but the Arabs released a statement.

    It read: “While we remain disappointed with the position of Rangers in respect of not taking any tickets for this match, we will not make any statements which may inflame the situation, particularly to avoid encouraging any hostility between our two sets of supporters.”

  46. ekt1m says:

    The above statement issued by Charles Green says it all for me. This is a guy who would make enemies even if he was selling fish suppers for a living. the sooner he leaves our wee country with his millions then the better off we will all be, and maybe the decent ‘Gers’ supporters can take over their club and make a go of it.

  47. exiledcelt says:

    And for anyone not seeing the MSM angle, please review the article from yesterday where The Sun took comments made by Lennon to the Guardian and out the usual “snarling” picture to go along with the article – cue rage from TRCF fans on Sevco Media….

    Apparenly Lenno gave the Shun reporters a mouthful for this blatent trouble making…..

    And we wonder why CFC kept quiet over the summer………..

    http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/sport/spl/4710132/Lenny-Rangers-are-weak-on-the-pitch-and-weak-off-it.html

  48. exiledcelt says:

    Interesting piece of info from earlier this month………coming from Roddy Forsyth – does he have some inside info on this…..

    Green has chosen to absolve Kilmarnock, Motherwell and St Mirren because they tried to broker a compromise deal that would have allowed the reconstituted Rangers into the top flight and he excluded Ross County from reprisals because they were the new boys in the division. So that should make his attitude to Celtic straightforward enough.

    After all, when the SPL clubs voted against the newco, Celtic issued a statement that read: “The decision to refuse access into the SPL was an overwhelming one and demonstrates the depth of feeling amongst everyone involved in Scottish football.” And Celtic have most to gain if the SPL investigation into Rangers’ use of side contracts in their EBT arrangements should lead to the stripping of league titles.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/rangers/9727579/Charles-Green-masters-art-of-picking-his-fights-wisely-at-Rangers.html

    Full article

    Charles Green masters art of picking his fights wisely at Rangers
    Rangers’ newco should be listed on the Alternative Investment Market by a week on Monday, all things being equal, and if the share issue really does raise £25 million or more, it will count as a substantial coup by Charles Green – and, of course, a tidy earner for the CEO as and when he divests himself of his interest in the club.

    By Roddy Forsyth
    11:00PM GMT 06 Dec 2012

    48 Comments
    The most remarkable aspect of Green’s tenure, as we have remarked previously, is his conversion of a Rangers support which was virulently hostile to the Yorkshireman six months ago.

    Remember John Brown’s demand that Green turn over the newco’s assets to the fans? “We don’t want to buy in with Charles Green. The Rangers fans are going to buy out Charles Green’s consortium,” the formed Ibrox midfielder declared, in a statement that is exactly the opposite of the current situation.

    Green’s appetite for grandstanding is as predictable as it is shrewd. In his short time in Glasgow his plays to the gallery have demonstrated that he has little to learn from Peter Lawwell, that other honours graduate of the ‘give ‘em what they want’ school.

    The secret, as always, is to pick your fights wisely. It was the Rangers Supporters’ Assembly who called for fans not to attend the Scottish Cup fifth-round tie away to Dundee United because of the Tannadice chairman’s vocal opposition to the newco being admitted to the SPL and because of his decision not to offer refunds for a postponed league match at the Tayside ground in 2009.

    Green, with a stock market launch still to see through, latched on to the fans’ demand. Leonard Cohen has a line which describes such behaviour splendidly: “Follow me, the wise man said – but he walked behind.”

    And, as usual, the affair has little to do with logic or fairness. United – who were due gate money from playing at Ibrox in the Scottish Cup in February – lost much-needed revenue from Rangers’ insolvency. Nor were they the only club to oppose Rangers’ admission into the SPL.

    Green has chosen to absolve Kilmarnock, Motherwell and St Mirren because they tried to broker a compromise deal that would have allowed the reconstituted Rangers into the top flight and he excluded Ross County from reprisals because they were the new boys in the division. So that should make his attitude to Celtic straightforward enough.

    After all, when the SPL clubs voted against the newco, Celtic issued a statement that read: “The decision

    to refuse access into the SPL was an overwhelming one and demonstrates the depth of feeling amongst everyone involved in Scottish football.” And Celtic have most to gain if the SPL investigation into Rangers’ use of side contracts in their EBT arrangements should lead to the stripping of league titles.

    But do you suppose for one moment that, had the Scottish Cup draw thrown up an Old Firm derby at Celtic Park, Green would have countenanced Ally McCoist taking his team to the east end of Glasgow without any support? And one assumes that he would have been rather less keen to donate a derby gate share of around £400,000 to charity, as he declared would happen with any cut of the attendance cash from Tannadice.

    In any case, Green’s freedom to soft soap the punters will be restricted once the share offer is completed. When it comes to getting a return on their investment, institutional investors could not care less whether Rangers fans bear a grudge against Dundee United or the man in the moon.

    Nor, if proposed league reconstruction throws up the possibility of a fast-track return to the higher echelon of Scottish football – and sooner or later it will – are the niceties of what happened at Hampden Park last summer going to count for the pension funds or whoever is buying up the bulk of the initial public offering of shares.

    Nope, money talks loudest – although it will have to turn up the volume considerably to get as much attention as the occupant of the Ibrox CEO’s chair has managed in six eventful months.

    Taxing times for HMRC

    The emanation of heat, rather than light, from events connected with Govan was extended by the confident declarations this week that HMRC had “appealed” the decision of the First Tier Tax Tribunal which found largely in favour of Rangers over the club’s uses of EBTs.

    The EBT issue has generated so much partisan passion that it is worth restating that HMRC has not appealed, but has asked the FTT tribunal for leave to appeal the verdict of what was already an appeal process.

    Should the FTT tribunal refuse this request, the tax authority can then make its case for appeal to the Upper Tribunal of the Tax and Chancery Chamber. Permission is not automatic and depends on the grounds for an appeal.

    If permission is granted, then HMRC has until Christmas Eve to lodge an appeal proper. To state this is not to imply that HMRC will not appeal – nor ultimately prevail.

    Rather, it is to recall the observation of the renowned American trial lawyer, Gerry Spence, who pointed out that the US Supreme Court is habitually split by arcane technicalities of fiscal law. In tax disputes, as others have noted, only fools and lawyers ever say they are sure of the outcome.

  49. TSFM says:

    Whullie asked me to show his reply from Army HQ regarding the Remembrance Day thingy at Ibrox.
    Suitably redacted of course

    http://wp.me/a2Dvlo-9P

  50. exiledcelt says:

    hmmmm – 2 TDs for finding a piece where Roddy Forsyth names whch SPL clubs CG says are not the bad guys…..whataboutary indeed!

    Problem is none of us have a clue who did what and who was agreeing to what – not sure if we ever will.

    Conjecture about why Aberdeen and Celtic keeping the vote structure to avoid a simila “mediation: by said clubs may be not far off the mark.

  51. whullie says:

    Thank you for that TSFM.

    Above is the response, in it’s entirety, to my letter to The ADC of Maj. Gen. Nick. H. Eeles, General Officer Commanding Scotland wrt to the Remembrance Day events at Ibrox. It is,I believe, exactly the same as the ones recieved and commented on by John Clarke, Tommy, Paulsatim, Angus1983, Danish Pastry, wjohnston1 and others.

  52. TSFM says:

    The new club – old club thing is getting a bit circular in terms of argument. I doubt very much that anyone is going to bring anything new to the table save for yet another “if ma granny died and ma granda re-married is she ma granny?” routine.

    It is an utterly pointless exercise in anything other than venting frustration which by definition is not the type of discussion we want on here. Given the fact that by and large the consensus on here is that they are a new club, and the stark situation that no Rangers fan will be convinced anyway, what is the point of constantly regurgitating it again and again?

    If we just agree to disagree then people can call them whatever they want without making it the topic of the blog. For the record, Rangers as they exist in the 3rd division are indisputably a new club, but apparently Rangers fans don’t agree, and it doesn’t point to any character defects if they take that stance.

    Nobody wins here. Rangers fans will be stuck with the new Club jibe forever, and those who want something officially endorsing that view posted on the town hall wall will be waiting forever. Get over it please.

    The name thing is inconsequential compared to what went on in the summer, and doesn’t amount to a hill of beans compared to the mountain of corruption that rose out of the sea of debt when Rangers went on the skids.

    We have had an award winning journalist and broadcaster spend a lot of time trying to drive the debate forward here, and by and large his posts – and those of others – are ignored by many who don’t know, or are not sufficiently interested in finding out which battles can be won and those which cannot.

    Can we please cut out the hot air and get back to real discussion?

    Apologies for the rant, but sometimes going through these posts I feel like I’m trudging through a river of molasses.

  53. whullie says:

    exiledcelt says:
    Sunday, December 23, 2012 at 00:28

    CG doing his UN best to defuse the situation – says non TRFC fans will cause trouble and blame the new club, then says he will take all the tickets and sell out – then states he wont talk to SPL clubes………..where to start…………

    It worse than having an attention seeking idiot inthe family……oh hold on!

    http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/sport/4711260/I-predict-a-riot.html

    CHARLES GREEN has warned Dundee United they are risking a RIOT by selling tickets direct to Rangers fans.
    ——————-

    Hi EC. WRT this above article.

    It is my view that CG is trying to do one of two things here.

    1. IF TRFC fans go to that game and there is any trouble, he has is his excuse in early.

    2. Alternatively. It could be construed as a snide effort by him to ensure that DUFC think twice about any effort to recoup some losses incurred by CG’s blatant gamesmanship, by offering tickets to ANY fans. Thus ensuring the away end is empty.
    Does CG want 40% of the gate? A gate wholly funded by fans of DUFC only?

    And The SFA do………..well, S.F.A.

  54. john clarke says:

    whullie says:
    Sunday, December 23, 2012 at 01:43
    ‘It is,I believe, exactly the same as the ones recieved and commented on by John Clarke, Tommy, Paulsatim, Angus1983, Danish Pastry, wjohnston1 and others.’

    Yes, it is, indeed.

  55. john clarke says:

    TSFM says:
    Sunday, December 23, 2012 at 01:52
    ‘…We have had an award winning journalist and broadcaster spend a lot of time trying to drive the debate forward here, ..’
    ———–
    Yes, indeed.

    The same man was absolutely brilliant on last evening’s ‘Sportsound Extra’.

    (On which, I may say, Tom English proved himself to be, essentially and basically, a ‘Terry Wogan’ who allowed an absolutely unconnected-to-football matter to be raised and was stupid enough, like some gombeenman , to respond to it ,instead of batting it and the perfidious BBC’s Kenny McIntyre into touch.

    But that takes us down another, well-trodden road entirely, as far as the objectivity of BBC Radio Scotland is concerned.

  56. TSFM says:

    TSFM says:

    Sunday, December 23, 2012 at 01:52(Edit)

    The name thing is inconsequential compared to what went on in the summer, and doesn’t amount to a hill of beans compared to the mountain of corruption that rose out of the sea of debt when Rangers went on the skids.
    ___________________________________________________________________________

    It’s very very late and I am very very tired. But I claim mixed metaphor of the year award for this 🙂

  57. exiledcelt says:

    TSFM – sorry to say but you are wrong

    If we say its ok to be the same club then TRFC should still be in SPL, not play in SLC or SC until 3rd round and have been in CL. In other words they were punished.

    If we agree its a different club, what transpired was the consequences of being a new club and not punishment

    The arguement is essentially the cause of the chasm in Scottish football created by people who were meant to look after Scottish football.

    They did it to enable a Spiv to make a lot of money in order to ensure “the fabric of society” were given a club to follow and maintain 140 years of dignified history.

    I agree we don’t need any more Granny stories. However you either believe TRFC were punished (same club) or have sufferred the consequences of being a new club.

    There is no gray area. Nor is there any doubt. However SFA, SFL and SPL have allowed CG t muddy the waters when it suits him.

    That is to their eternal shame

  58. selfassessor says:

    http://m.scotsman.com/sport/football/spl/charles-green-warns-of-crowd-trouble-as-dundee-united-sell-to-rangers-fans-1-2704949

    Whataboutery this for a laugh? Charlie Endell is now saying the board are saying Rangers fans aren’t going to the Dundee United game for safety reasons! Did I miss something when he spewed his original spin when the fixture was announced.

    You can’t make this shit up but it certainly stinks of it.

  59. jockybhoy says:

    Green has given the light blues fans a carte blanche to succumb to red mist at the tangerines ground. It’ll be a black day and the boys in blue might end up purple.

    Colour me worried.

    What are the SFA/SPL/Tayside police going to say about what seems to me to be an attempt to pre-absolve the “ibrox club” from any blame whilst fanning the flames by mentioning “bad blood”?

  60. doontheslope says:

    TSFM

    It was the award winning journalist himself who was ripping the p@sh out of all things Sevco on his programme yesterday regarding their claim to be ‘old co.’

    This has got little or nothing to do with ‘banter’ or bragging rights. Its to do with whether a club can screw the tax payer and creditors for millions and waltz straight back in debt free as if nothing had happened.

    And just when sections of the MSM are beginning to speak out and pressure is being put on the SFA to declare them a new club, we are being asked to take our feet off the gas?

    I say pay their debts. Then they can call themselves Real Madrid or whoever if they wish. At that point, who cares?

  61. I think Dundee United should have given the tickets for the away end to local schools for free – pack out that end of the ground, good PR, maybe encourage some new fans, and show up Charles Green’s posturing for the pot-stirring nonsense it is

  62. campsiejoe says:

    Charlie obviously believes, perhaps with some degree of confidence, that he is totally immune to any form of sanction from the so called footballing authorities
    There is not another director, manager or club official who spout this level of nonsense, without being called to the viper’s nest to explain himself

    The longer this is allowed to continue, then the perception that the SFA/SPL/SFL are complicit in maintaining the status of Sevco, and ensuring that no harm will come to it, will continue to grow
    That is a very dangerous situation for those running the game to find themselves in

    All of the other clubs, should take a long hard look at themselves also, as they will in time face the same accusations as those who slither around Hampden
    They have the power to enforce change, but sadly seem to lack the testicular fortitude to do it

    When the infamous 5 way agreement is revealed, and one day it will be in all its corrupt detail. then the SFA/SPL/SFL will be forced to explain why they let the rest of the game down, and the festering boil can then be lanced
    Then and only then will we all be able to move on

  63. angus1983 says:

    I wasn’t aware of any great bad feeling between RFC and Dundee Utd (aside from the usual antagonism caused by RFC fans wherever they go) until Mr Green started stirring this particular pot.

    I’m not sure what Mr Green’s plan is now – he doesn’t need to keep the siege mentality quite so ramped up now the cash is in. Why is he preserving the “them and us” attitude, and why is he seeking new targets for it, or at least magnifying existing targets?

    Although his slippery statements are carefully worded to avoid official repercussion, there can be little doubt that they incite TRFC supporters to act in their own inimitable way.

  64. neepheid says:

    campsiejoe says:
    Sunday, December 23, 2012 at 08:49
    2 0 Rate This
    Charlie obviously believes, perhaps with some degree of confidence, that he is totally immune to any form of sanction from the so called footballing authorities
    ==========
    Charles Green knows, with absolute certainty, that he is immune to any sanction, because Charles Green has a copy of the 5 way agreement in his jacket pocket, and if he chooses to release it, then it’s goodbye to the “leadership” of the SFA, SPL and SFL. Because all 3 bodies are complicit in the most corrupt stitch-up in the history of Scottish football. Why did they put themselves in that position? That’s the real question.

  65. Lord Wobbly says:

    selfassessor says:
    Sunday, December 23, 2012 at 06:50
    9 2 Rate This

    http://m.scotsman.com/sport/football/spl/charles-green-warns-of-crowd-trouble-as-dundee-united-sell-to-rangers-
    fans-1-2704949

    Whataboutery this for a laugh? Charlie Endell is now saying the
    board are saying Rangers fans aren’t going to the Dundee United game for safety reasons!
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    The Ibrox asbestos problem must have been resolved tout de suite then…

  66. bill1903 says:

    angus1983 says:
    Sunday, December 23, 2012 at 09:05
    0 0 Rate This
    I wasn’t aware of any great bad feeling between RFC and Dundee Utd (aside from the usual antagonism caused by RFC fans wherever they go) until Mr Green started stirring this particular pot.
    ———————————————————————————————————————————

    Indeed Angus I was also unaware of any bad feeling.

    Can you imagine the hype if the new club were coming to Pittodrie !

  67. Lord Wobbly says:

    angus1983 says:
    Sunday, December 23, 2012 at 09:05
    1 1 Rate This
    I wasn’t aware of any great bad feeling between RFC and Dundee Utd (aside from the usual antagonism caused by RFC fans wherever they go) until Mr Green started stirring this particular pot.
    I’m not sure what Mr Green’s plan is now – he doesn’t need to
    keep the siege mentality quite so ramped up now the cash is in.
    Why is he preserving the “them and us” attitude, and why is he
    seeking new targets for it, or at least magnifying existing targets?
    Although his slippery statements are carefully worded to avoid
    official repercussion, there can be little doubt that they incite TRFC supporters to act in their own inimitable way.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    If Rangers International fans (stifles laugh) have their sights trained on other clubs, His Excellency President for Life, Field Marshal Charles Green, UEFA CWC, Scottish League Champion 54, Scottish Cup winner 33, League Cup winner 27 etc etc can continue to manipulate his own domain with impunity.

  68. iceman63 says:

    The only hope rests with the club and for reasons of practicality, fear and self interest,that is a very slim hope indeed. The authorities are hopelessly compromised, and are in reality parties to corruption and cheating. The clubs need to take action to save the game; the fear obviously ids that such action itself may well trigger a further crisis which further damages the game.

    The clubs should call an egm of the SFA and demand to see the five way agreement and have lawyers check its validity and legitimacy. If, as i think it is, it is a completely ultra vires document where the rules have been breached to allow SEVCO to enter and rename themselves Rangers despite the rule not allowing a share transfer to another legal entity and the second rule demanding three years of new accounts for new entrants not being met, and the failure to allow a proper entry procedure as per the rules for a new club to enter not being met, then all involved should be fired – and sued for damages personally by the clubs for their reckless and incompetent actions.

    At that point a decision would then have to be made about accepting the fait accompli re the Rangers given that it is tied up to the structural integrity of both the league and the TV deal- or rejecting the agreement and re-imposing the rules and asking the new club to stop playing as they are there illegally . One could, of course, expect huge damages claims if that comes to pass from CG and his cohorts – but also huge consequences if they are allowed to stay in breach of the rules. The game will either be forever illegitimate by accepting this agreement or bankrupted by the legal actions which both SKY and the Rangers will take against them should they annul it.

    It’s a total mess.

    It may well be that the fear of opening this particular can of worms is what keeps them all in place. Some of the clubs may well want to gain justice – but may know that the process of getting there will leave the game bankrupted finacially by the officials who signed this deal; they are of course already bankrupted morally by the very agreement which is in place at present.

    The game’s very existence is now incredibly fragile. It is built solely upon a conspiracy to keep the five way agreement document hidden and away from any scrutiny by lawyers or others well versed in the articles of association.

    Turnbull Hutton called them “corrrupt” and has never been brought to task for it. They are all truly, deeply and irrevocably corrupt, and are manifestly unfit to hold office in any organisation which requires any standards of probity.

    Their actions have destroyed the game totally as a sport. They may or may not be criminal – though I think they ought to be – but they are unquestionably reckless , and almost certainly against the rules of the game of which they are the guardians.

    Contempt for all involved should be total and endless. None of those involved in signing that agreement are human beings of any honesty or integrity or courage: all are pathetic, disgusting, revolting individuals without a shred of human decency.

    We know that – and they know that!

  69. campsiejoe says:

    Within the not too distant future, the true status of Sevco will be laid bare, with no wriggle room left for Charlie and his MSM puppets
    Logic and facts say beyond all reasonable doubt, that it is a new company and a new club, and eventually via the courts or some quasi judicial procedure, this will be proved (TUPE case for example)
    The focus now has to shift to the nest of vipers, and all our efforts should be directed towards exposing them
    The only way we can realistically do this is via the clubs we support, and that is where we need to start
    There are people out there who are on our side, and what we need to find is a way to encourage them to stand up and be counted
    If they could find the courage, they would also find that the vast majority of fans would stand right there with them

  70. campsiejoe says:

    And another thought
    We should be demanding answers fro BDO, HMRC and others, as to why they appear to be taking no action against one of the most blatant examples of a Phoenix Company possibly ever seen, coupled with possible gratuitous alienation
    All of this needs to be kept in the spotlight too

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